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flat assembler > Heap > Are gender differences real? Why can't we talk about it?

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system error



Joined: 01 Sep 2013
Posts: 522
I remember posting about this some time ago. Luckily I wasn't fired because my boss is thinking just like me. Love you, Boss! ;D

Well, like Bob Marley said: "No Women, No Cry"
Post 12 Aug 2017, 22:41
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 567
Post 13 Aug 2017, 16:12
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6441
Location: Kraków, Poland
https://twitter.com/boguspress/status/896501273989480448
We are working hard to maintain the divisions and stereotypes. The cultural frames that say what is more "fitting" for someone from a particular group are prevalent everywhere. Who knows what the differences between people would be in a society free of that? We may never know.

What I find the most troublesome is not that we humans are not smart. It is that we think of ourselves as very smart nonetheless. In the "western" culture the men are encouraged to be over-confident and brag about their own abilities. I always find that disgusting.
Post 13 Aug 2017, 19:40
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 567
I agree, but to me what some are doing is way worse. It's like with racism. Say statistically there's fewer black people in software development jobs. So someone decides to hire more blacks to "even it out". That is racism itself -- racism against non-blacks (whites or whatever).

I find it funny when people say, well, gender/race/etc does not matter and they want diversity, but diversity implies you look at the gender/race and try to manually "equalize" it.

Treating the minorities better just for being the minority is racism/sexism/etc just as much as the other way around.
Post 13 Aug 2017, 21:33
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7652
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
In the "western" culture the men are encouraged to be over-confident and brag about their own abilities. I always find that disgusting.

The same is true for "Eastern" culture. Men are "supposed" to protect women; men are "supposed" to provide for their families. But I don't find it disgusting -- it is just part of the "norm" of our male-dominated society.

Wink
Post 14 Aug 2017, 02:07
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
Location: Off the scale in the third direction

YONG wrote:

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
In the "western" culture the men are encouraged to be over-confident and brag about their own abilities. I always find that disgusting.

The same is true for "Eastern" culture. Men are "supposed" to protect women; men are "supposed" to provide for their families. But I don't find it disgusting -- it is just part of the "norm" of our male-dominated society.

Wink



I see much biology behind all of it.

Some brag with their skills. Some show off their fancy new car. Some bully others. Not all of these are the morally right thing to do and some of them make little sense but they all still "work" in some ways in some contexts. Right?

But then again many nowadays deny biology in the usual science denialist way and instead claim all of it to be just a social construct even if it is plainly observable that similar behaviors can be found all over nature and among species that have brains smaller than peanuts.

The norm being the same as tradition. If many females want to abandon tradition and society deems that to be okay then why is it wrong for males to abandon their traditional gender roles too? Or is it about allowing both to take on extra rights and responsibilities from the other side of the equation but still demand that they fully participate in the rituals and processes of society?

But what if it is known that for many that is too much and will not work in practice? For example women the culture tells women that they can have both home and work but many struggle to find a guy to settle down with and downshift as soon as they hit 30 in order to be able to manage both at the same time *if* they can afford it.

The thing I find sickening in entertainment is how it is okay for girls to be violent against boys and how the norm is that it is expected to be funny. Where is the equality in that and why aren't the people demanding for equality saying anything about it? You can take this as a rhetorical question. Figuring out why this is so wasn't that difficult. It's the same things that are behind it.

Yes, males dominate in many areas of life and then the women select the which males get to pass on their genes. Of course it is more complicated than that but the statistics are said to say that relatively speaking there are less men who get to pass on their genes compared to women.
Post 14 Aug 2017, 04:26
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
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For those who haven't seen the original document that got James Damore fired:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf
Post 14 Aug 2017, 05:41
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6441
Location: Kraków, Poland

YONG wrote:

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
In the "western" culture the men are encouraged to be over-confident and brag about their own abilities. I always find that disgusting.

The same is true for "Eastern" culture. Men are "supposed" to protect women; men are "supposed" to provide for their families. But I don't find it disgusting -- it is just part of the "norm" of our male-dominated society.

Wink

I see nothing strange in expecting that you care for other people and provide for your family - if anything, this should apply to everyone, not just men. Wink
What I have a quarrel with is the culture of arrogance.


nyrtzi wrote:
I see much biology behind all of it.

Is biology enough of an excuse though? Most of us learned not to pee in the streets, I believe we could just as well learn to not be so stupidly arrogant.
Post 14 Aug 2017, 07:01
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7652
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
I see nothing strange in expecting that you care for other people and provide for your family - if anything, this should apply to everyone, not just men.

The highlighted part is exactly my point.


Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
What I have a quarrel with is the culture of arrogance.

That is just human nature -- whether you are a man or woman makes no difference.

Wink
Post 14 Aug 2017, 07:11
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7652
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

nyrtzi wrote:
I see much biology behind all of it.

When biology plays a significant part in a gender-discriminating situation, things get complicated.

For those who have some legal training or are interested in legal arguments, take a look at the following "landmark" case that happened in the early 2000s right here in HK:

Equal Opportunities Commission v. Director of Education
https://www.escr-net.org/caselaw/2009/equal-opportunities-commission-v-director-education-no-1555-2000

As girls enter puberty much earlier than do boys, girls have an inherent edge over boys academically during their first few teenage years. Does it constitute "gender discrimination" if girls and boys are assessed separately during that "transitional" period?


BTW, girls are entering puberty earlier than ever before, according to recent studies. Refer to:

Girls Are Going Through Puberty Earlier Than Ever Before, With Long-Term Health Risks
https://www.sciencealert.com/girls-are-going-through-puberty-earlier-than-ever-before-with-long-term-effects

Wink
Post 14 Aug 2017, 07:59
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7652
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
Most of us learned not to pee in the streets

At times, it is not about learning; it is about something else. Refer to:

WHY DOES PARIS SMELL LIKE PEE?
http://flashpackerfamily.com/why-does-paris-smell-like-pee/

Sorry for my off-topic post.

Wink
Post 14 Aug 2017, 08:05
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
Location: Off the scale in the third direction
Now the following are just my observations and what I've heard and read from others. If I do make any truth claims please remember that I'm throwing these out into the open just so I can get feedback and compare all of it to the experiences of others. After all the people out there (here on the message board) often a lot of more experience and different kind of experience than what I have.

And I'm sorry that I usually write posts that are too long for peoples' tastes. I know it's a bad habit but it's already second nature to me. I'm not expecting that people even have the time to read all of it. Usually they don't seem to. I often get back answers that begin with "tl;dr" and then some nonsense based on not just skipping the reading part but also the reading comprehension part which makes me ask why I even bothered. The reason why I bothered is that I'm writing in order to formulate and figure out what I think about it myself.

But then to the meat of the matter.

Btw why are moon rocks tastier than earth rocks? Because they're meteor.
(Not a very good one I guess but it made me laugh.)


Tomasz Grysztar wrote:

nyrtzi wrote:
I see much biology behind all of it.

Is biology enough of an excuse though? Most of us learned not to pee in the streets, I believe we could just as well learn to not be so stupidly arrogant.



One might also be tempted to expect one's co-workers to act like responsible and reasonable adults but that is exceedingly rare. Yes, there usually is some logic to what people do but most often it's just them doing what they're used to or comfortable with that they rationalize only afterwards if you ask them for it. People usually just don't think much. Which is normal as really thinking by oneself for oneself requires putting in the effort of doing it explicitly and this seems to be a limited resource people have only so much of each day.

Programmers perhaps maybe might think a bit more if one thinks that writing is thinking on paper or how did that old quote go again but maybe even programmers don't put that much effort into it. After all how often do they think their designs through on paper or with a technical drawing program or in text? In my experience they usually don't unless the environment makes them follow some formal process which forces them to do that. And even then it might be the people higher up in the food chain who do all of the thinking for the code monkeys who then just follow the spec.

I've been reading books about supervisor work, leadership and workplace psychology with a lot of real life example stories and I've often found myself laughing at just how hopelessly pathetic we are as a species. Or maybe I'm just projecting onto others how useless I myself am. Then again we humans are not very rational nor virtuous by nature and I think science confirms that. I find the term "Homo sapiens sapiens" to be quite a misnomer. I guess it makes sense if I take it as relative to the species that came before us. Maybe I've just lost faith in the narrative of progress or at least for the human part of it so that the humanistic position of believing and having faith in humankind has sort of become unnatural to me. Some kind of typical postmodern cynicism? The little (cultural or whatever) Christian that is in me would still like to believe in people but it's becoming more and more just empathy and sympathy towards the human condition. But I've heard people say that even that caring for others is a thing that needs to be learned as it is something that doesn't come naturally by itself.

But as far as the arrogance problems goes I haven't heard of any realistic solutions. Perhaps the only way to unlearn the arrogance is through personal experience that forces one to notice how it just makes no sense to arrogant. And there are probably people who can't learn it even that way. And even the ones who learn might still fall into it every now and then. I know I do and afterwards I always beat myself up over it. Does this make any sense?
Post 19 Aug 2017, 03:47
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7652
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

nyrtzi wrote:
why are moon rocks tastier than earth rocks? Because they're meteor.

While I know that your line was meant to be a joke, I still need to point out that the moon was part of the Earth, according to scientific evidence like isotopic signature. Refer to:

Origin of the Moon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Moon

I am sorry that I did not read the rest of your post -- because it was way too long.

Wink
Post 19 Aug 2017, 04:35
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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i guess we have too many words here with vague meaning,

what is arrogance? could it be some sort of twisted self-confidence? or somehow it came from egotism?

and what is smart?

i assume smart equal to knowing how, and knowing a lot about how to result something,

arrogance equal to closed minded way of thoughts that sealed off every and any other possibilities of how a become b except what he/she/it believes is the only way,

self-confidence equal how sure we are about how a become b, i guess a 100% self-confidence is not far away from arrogance, Wink

but is arrogance a value that we human should shun off and keep away? idk
because there exists crucial position in our societies, companies, countries, that only those who are arrogant could sit,

i been pondering about egotism while driving today,
the question is, what is my emotional sop if someone splash a glass a water on me while i am having my lunch? or out of nowhere, somebody slap me? or somebody kick or punch me?

this actually happened to a lady sit next to me while i am having my breakfast, the waiter somehow splashed a cup of teh tarik on her, and she was not angry, (and i think, this kind of emotional feedback is so damn sincere and awesome)

she quickly gets some tissues from her purse and clean herself up, yes, not even a word of scolding to that waiter, the waiter kept on appologize,

but how about our reaction if such scenario happened to us?

someone could yell us go and die for no f. reason, and this is the state of this world right now, Laughing Wink

common-sense, rational and logic are a kind of state of mind that one get after much pondering and self-exploring, a conclusion that one hold after processing all his or her life experiences, memories etc,

too bad, most people prefer to spend their ability to do possible changes in other ways, there is no right or wrong here, it just, they prefer something else that probably hold little or no value compare to what we assume of high value,
Post 19 Aug 2017, 10:50
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7652
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
i been pondering about egotism while driving today

Don't do that!

Please focus on the traffic while driving. Be a responsible road user.

(I don't think that I needed to define "responsible"!)

Wink
Post 19 Aug 2017, 12:04
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system error



Joined: 01 Sep 2013
Posts: 522
People don't understand that diversity and gender equality don't come from natural enlightenment. It's just a recent phenomenon, purposely highlighted and well-funded by certain organizations with ulterior political motives. The main objective is to weaken or break the majority or the main force of the society. Diversity is nothing more but a political tool.
Post 19 Aug 2017, 13:13
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system error



Joined: 01 Sep 2013
Posts: 522
Gender inequality don't exist at work because we fail to separate the idea of equality vs equity.

Sending more women for work (competing with men) may sound good in terms of gender equality but on the other end, it inflicts more damage on family upbringing quality, as the single most important unit in a nation and society building efforts. Family units and equity crumble all over the place just to satisfy gender equality in the workforce?

But that is the kind of stupidity and effects that certain organizations want. They fund and support the diversity / equality movements in order to get what they want by breaking up the force of the majority into weak, smaller pieces.

Women should get more education and the government / corporations should pay those educated women to stay at home attending to their children and family. That's smarter if compared to "equality" that most people see. That's equity vs equality. Everybody wins.

Vote for me in the next Presidential Election of your countries Razz
Post 19 Aug 2017, 13:43
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sleepsleep



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YONG wrote:

(I don't think that I needed to define "responsible"!)


i think it is better to define what actually is "responsible",

i think we as a human ~ been doing multi-tasks since our ancestors, Wink


system error wrote:

Gender inequality don't exist at work because we fail to separate the idea of equality vs equity.


what is equality and what is equity?


system error wrote:

Women should get more education and the government / corporations should pay those educated women to stay at home attending to their children and family.


what is your opinion if man should get more education, and government / corporations pay those educated men to stay at home caring their children?
Post 19 Aug 2017, 19:00
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7652
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
i think we as a human ~ been doing multi-tasks since our ancestors, Wink

Refer to:

Distracted driving
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distracted_driving

Listen to my advice before it is too late!

Wink
Post 20 Aug 2017, 01:28
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
Location: Off the scale in the third direction

YONG wrote:
I am sorry that I did not read the rest of your post -- because it was way too long.

Wink



Which is why I said earlier:


nyrtzi wrote:

And I'm sorry that I usually write posts that are too long for peoples' tastes



But that part precedes the lame joke so I guess you did read that.

A very common challenge I face.
Post 20 Aug 2017, 04:38
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