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flat assembler > Heap > Are gender differences real? Why can't we talk about it?

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revolution
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Are gender differences real? Why can't we talk about it?

Is wanting something to be right/wrong enough of a reason to stifle talk about it?

The latest bit of controversy about the Google employee that says biology is to blame for the gender gap in the tech industry was fired.

I don't care about whether or not he was correct actually. What I do care about it is the firing. He may, or may not, be correct. And apparently this has not been investigated. He was fired to talking about it and raising the possibility that there might be a real difference.

There seems to be a culture of "we don't want it to be correct so therefore you are not permitted to say such a thing". But wanting something to be wrong doesn't automatically make it wrong. The political correctness of being completely gender neutral is fine and good. But we shouldn't let that stop us from properly evaluating if there really is a difference. I am reminded of the Judgement of Paris where many people didn't want to believe the results and tried to change them after the fact. When the results showed that their beliefs were wrong they refused to accept them. Are we going the same way with gender differences? Maybe they are real, maybe not. But suppressing talk about it won't foster an environment suitable to discover the real answer.

Women are equal to men, right? PC expectations tell us to answer yes. But if that is true then why do the Olympic games have separate men's and women's events?
Post 08 Aug 2017, 09:34
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sleepsleep



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revolution wrote:

But if that is true then why do the Olympic games have separate men's and women's events?


maybe you are mad or etc, unstable emotion, because this doesn't look like a good question, Wink

gender, religion, race, cultural, ethnicity, family brings up, etc, they are all factors that adds up and become a person motivation factors to do something, to be somebody, etc,

idk what that google employee said, because i am not inside google internal mailing list,

since idk what he said, so i can't say anything about his firing, because he/she (senior software ...) maybe said something that could cause somebody else to sue him/her, and google probably intend to protect him/her by firing him/her,

a lay man, normal male, probably can't win a trained female in 100 meters or etc sports, or etc brain mind games or etc challenges,

this conclude, objectives could be trained, through hard works, dedication and sacrifice in others things, regardless of gender, religion, race etc,

what i see is, how far a person desire, motivate to become what he/she intends to be,

gender gap in tech industry happened because the factors i mentioned above, but all these could be modified, maybe having a all-girls tech college, etc, all-girls start-ups, i don't think girls will achieve less than man, they probably excel and better than man,
Post 08 Aug 2017, 10:49
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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I'm referring to the culture of suppressing discussion of gender differences. PC tells us to always say the party line that men == women so therefore the tech industry had better start hiring more women. Which is fine if the premise is indeed true (it might be). But I see no evidence that it has actually been tested. And discussion about it seems to always devolve into "If you say women != men then you are a misogynist" or similar, rather than actually looking into if it is true or not.
Post 08 Aug 2017, 11:01
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sleepsleep



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idk if there a studies to compare, all male working environment, vs all girls vs mixed environment,

and i think regardless of gender, anyone who is capable, interested to solve problems, should be given an opportunity to try, a small opportunity and let him/her grow from there,

maybe there exists culture of suppressing discussion of gender differences, maybe in big companies, google, microsoft or etc, idk since i don't work in big companies,

and probably there are reasons too why company limit such discussion,

but what kind of output and conclusion we could get from such discussion? and how to use such conclusion to facilitate companies growth?
Post 08 Aug 2017, 11:19
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revolution
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Well say for example that testing is encouraged and shows that for tech jobs men > women, or the opposite women > men. That kind of result could guide companies to hire a better mix of staff, rather than simply "you must achieve 50/50 parity or suffer penalties/criticism".
Post 08 Aug 2017, 11:29
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sleepsleep



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revolution wrote:

"you must achieve 50/50 parity or suffer penalties/criticism".


i get it,
but if 50/50 could create a better working environment? idk, i guess,

you see, i personally prefer to work in environment with cool and smart girls, so i prefer a 30/70 environment, Laughing
Post 08 Aug 2017, 11:47
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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sleepsleep wrote:
but if 50/50 could create a better working environment? idk, i guess,

It might do. The point being we don't actually know if it does or not. All we have is rhetoric telling us 50/50 and nothing else.
Post 08 Aug 2017, 11:51
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
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This is disgusting but it's not unusual. World is ran by retards who don't even realize it. I bet some of them are atheist which makes it worse, not because they don't believe in a higher being, but because they think this is not religion when in fact it's their gender-neutrality religion. I can't call it any other way. They believe what they want to believe, just like a religious zealot; at least the religious zealot admits he is religious, these guys don't, which makes it more disgusting to me.

Don't forget people who want you to identify them as something other than male or female -- and it's actually a real thing. It feels as if it's copied out of a child's tantrum, but it's the "adult society" we live in these days.

Pathetic.

Women are not the same as men, and that is a fact. When we speak of "women" we refer to statistical majority or average. Of course there are exceptions, like with everything. That is why you see 20/80 in tech jobs. Those 20? Yeah those are those exceptions, but actually the percentage is lower. Some of them were hired just for shit reasons like these not for their inherent aptitude over a male.

And no, I don't give a fuck what they believe, they need to pray to their feminist god. I am mad because this should be made illegal as if you were to fire someone just for having a different religion (or not believing your religion). They need to fuck off. Cancer of society.
Post 08 Aug 2017, 12:17
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Tomasz Grysztar
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I see this problem as mainly a result of trying to oversimplify things, something that we humans often do - well, because (as I argued in the past) we are not really a good thinkers. In my opinion both sides are right in some aspects but they talk past each other, mainly because of using a simplistic language to make statements about a complex problem.

I have no doubt that statistically there may be detectable differences between the abilities of men and women. But the Bell curves for most of them are largely overlapping and not that far from each other. This means that even if statistically, on a large population, it might be true that men are slightly more likely to be better at some task, this is a difference too small for people to be able to judge it adequately.

Consider a case where I need to decide whether to hire someone for a particular job. Let's say that I know that statistically, per thousand, there are a few more men good at this job than women. If I allow myself to take this into consideration, I'm probably going to blow this fact out of proportion (you know, because of how flawed thinkers we people are) - and it would create an inadequate bias in my reasoning. I may end up detecting flaws in what woman does and not seeing the same flaws when man does it, just because the statistics made me expect these flaws more from a woman. And this is not even taking into consideration any cultural prejudices I might also have! To avoid misjudging someone because of my biases it might be better to forget about any statistical differences and focus just on the abilities that this person may be able to present. But it is hard to make yourself "forget" your biases. Enforcing 50/50 may be a temporary measure to fight any strong prejudices that already exist, because they tend to be self-perpetuating. This is more like trying to apply a radical cure to an illness than a "universal truth". In an ideal situation we would be able to judge people based only on their actual abilities and not any biases that we have. But we are not nearly as good at it as we would like.
Post 08 Aug 2017, 17:22
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revolution
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So let's pretend for a moment that Google, Facebook, MS, Apple, etc. have now skimmed off all of the top male tech workers with their collective 80/20 ratio. So where does that leave all the other smaller companies? From the remaining workers that should leave an even split 50/50 for the top performers and we should find merit based employers to match the 50/50 ratio, right? Companies would be smart to hire the best workers (for profit reasons) and not simply hire based upon gender, but does it happen? A very brief informal survey by me just now suggests that almost no significantly sized company currently achieves 50/50 tech worker ratios. Are companies missing out on good workers by overlooking top female talent?

However I'm not sure how to interpret that. Perhaps employers really do hire the best, and fewer females appear at the top. Or maybe employers are seriously biased (as suggested by Tomasz) and they are foolishly missing out on good workers. Are females intimidated by all the testosterone and either quit or just don't apply?


Last edited by revolution on 08 Aug 2017, 20:23; edited 1 time in total
Post 08 Aug 2017, 18:36
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Tomasz Grysztar
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revolution wrote:
However I'm not sure how to interpret that. Perhaps employers really do hire the best, and fewer females appear at the top. Or maybe employers are seriously biased (as suggested by Tomasz) and they are foolishly missing out on good workers. Are females intimidated by all the testosterone and either quit or just don't apply?

When some biases are prevalent in society/culture, a self-censorship may also be a strong factor. Not even intimidation is needed to cause this, even a slight discomfort and feeling of being "out of place" could be discouraging enough to create a noticeable statistical effect. People have a tendency to seek "tribal groups" and avoid ones where they would feel isolated.
Post 08 Aug 2017, 19:25
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
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I don't see how that has anything to do with them firing people over it. In fact, this is the problem of the women who feel intimidated like that. So of course the proper course of action would be to educate them instead of firing the "mean guy" who speaks the cold truth.

What is this, kindergarten?

No wonder women are so squeamish, since instead of growing a pair (so to speak) they prefer to act like victims and cry to their parents (society/political correctness), so they'll never grow up. It has nothing to do with women only though (they're just the majority of this group), squeamish men piss me off just as much.
Post 08 Aug 2017, 19:53
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ProphetOfDoom



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This reminds me of a quote from bisexual Mark Renton in the film Trainspotting:

Quote:
1,000 years from now there will be no guys and no girls, just wankers.


Replace 1,000 with 50 and you have... reality.
IMO, women just don't like coding as much as men do. There's nothing good or bad about that, it's just the way it is.
The problem is will taking precedence over reason. These days a man can say "I am a woman, because I will it so". No-one is allowed to object for fear of being labelled "prejudiced". So he gets a compliant surgeon to mutilate him, and changes his name, and he's legally (not biologically) a woman.
The Google situation is less dramatic but clearly they have willed a certain reality and their employee has dared to go against it and paid the price.
Post 09 Aug 2017, 13:06
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sleepsleep



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maybe human should re-learn how to communicate with another human in office, home, and etc?

maybe there are lots of misunderstanding and unnecessary guessing that extend more guessing and misunderstanding?

or maybe human really suck at explaining what human really want or intend inside his/her mind?
Post 09 Aug 2017, 22:28
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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ProphetOfDoom wrote:
IMO, women just don't like coding as much as men do. There's nothing good or bad about that, it's just the way it is.

Okay, that might be true. But why don't they like it? Is it because the existing culture is discouraging? Is it because they are "wired" differently?
Post 11 Aug 2017, 03:34
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Tomasz Grysztar
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There may be no simple answers to such questions. If you ask scientists, you may notice that the answers get only more complex as our knowledge grows. Asking for a plain yes/no answers may be very misleading, unfortunately it is more popular to expect simple solutions.

Oh, and gender is also only one of many possible axes of these problems.
Post 11 Aug 2017, 10:36
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Furs



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revolution wrote:
Okay, that might be true. But why don't they like it? Is it because the existing culture is discouraging? Is it because they are "wired" differently?

On the other hand I think culture is trying to force them to be something different than what they are wired, just "to be equal" and other nonsense. Confused

Most women are wired differently, that's a fact, whether it's about coding or not is a different matter though. Notice how I said "most", since nobody is the same (biologically, not poetically or other crap), and some are closer to men (or even share some typical "man" genes).

The other way around applies as well. But these women/men aren't so "common". Women tend to prefer more artistic stuff like drawing and such (yeah, there's many men who do it, but women are the majority).
Post 11 Aug 2017, 11:09
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ProphetOfDoom



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revolution wrote:
Okay, that might be true. But why don't they like it? Is it because the existing culture is discouraging? Is it because they are "wired" differently?


Not culture. I think women's brains must be different from men's (and their souls too but that opens up a whole other argument). Men are more rational/logical and women are more emotional/intuitive. I must emphasise that "different" doesn't mean "better" or "worse". The sexes complement one another.
Google clearly wants a workforce consisting only of wankers. Laughing Rolling Eyes
Post 11 Aug 2017, 12:16
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nyrtzi



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Furs wrote:
What is this, kindergarten?



Yes.
Post 12 Aug 2017, 11:05
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revolution
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So it appears we still need to determine whether the differences (if any) are real or imagined.

I want to post a comment from phys.org

https://phys.org/news/2017-08-google-ceo-girls-industry.html wrote:
Or as one author put it - the argument for diversity is self-contradictory.

On one hand it argues that people are the same, they have the same skills, intelligences, motivations, same interests etc. so that anyone can in principle do the job just as well regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation... you name it. Therefore any disparity in representation must be due to oppression and must be met with countermeasures of positive discrimination.

On the other hand, it argues that diversity in the workplace is desirable because it brings in more viewpoints and different skillsets, motivations, ideas... you name it. You need the woman's perspective, and the minority perspective... etc. to keep relevant in the marketplace.

One contradicts the other. If there are no differences, then diversity is just political, not practical. If there are differences, then naturally some people are more suited for a task, and diversity for the sake of diversity is counterproductive.

But, shh, don't tell anyone because we are not allowed to talk about publicly for fear of ridicule and derision.
Post 12 Aug 2017, 17:00
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