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flat assembler > Heap > Skynet versus The Red Queen -- Discussions on AI

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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1430
YONG wrote:
On the "special" arguments, I was referring to whether the human race -- or any intelligent life-forms for that matter -- held any special place in the Milky Way, the observable universe, or the entire universe.
Yeah, but you said you have a problem with AIs (or other lifeforms) living on Mars or other planets as well, unless I misunderstood that. Confused

But why would it have to mimic human behavior though?

That implies humans are the only ones capable of "genuine" behavior/emotions like that, which doesn't make much sense considering your position for the rest of the world. (if you believed in stuff like souls, that would be another story) It is naive to think that, somehow, only the specific human brain is able to make use of such feedback loops leading to what we call emotions, even when assuming there are more intelligent beings (like AI, since we're talking about smart AI, not dumb AI).
Post 26 Aug 2017, 23:19
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
sleepsleep wrote:
for digital wallet, you could try download electrum
Okay. I will take a look at Electrum. Thanks a lot!

Wink
Post 27 Aug 2017, 05:19
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Furs wrote:
but you said you have a problem with AIs (or other lifeforms) living on Mars or other planets as well
Other lifeforms? Rolling Eyes You are putting words in my mouth, again! Mad

I was answering your question then. Placing AIs or self-learning machines on Mars -- or other distant planets for that matter -- as a means to constrain or isolate them is bound to fail. They can keep improving themselves and wait for the perfect window to escape -- whether it takes 10, 50, or even 100 years. And then the human race will definitely be wiped out.
Post 27 Aug 2017, 05:31
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Furs wrote:
That implies humans are the only ones capable of "genuine" behavior/emotions like that, which doesn't make much sense considering your position for the rest of the world. (if you believed in stuff like souls, that would be another story) It is naive to think that, somehow, only the specific human brain is able to make use of such feedback loops leading to what we call emotions, even when assuming there are more intelligent beings (like AI, since we're talking about smart AI, not dumb AI).
We are going back to the question of whether AIs / self-learning machines can -- or should -- be treated as life-forms. Sigh. Confused

Since I believe that you know my standpoint, I am not going to waste any time to re-state my arguments. But I do want to recommend the following sci-fi movie to you:

Bicentennial Man (1999)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicentennial_Man_(film)

Towards the end of the movie, the lead character -- an unusual robot with self-learning capabilities -- wants to have the legal status of a human being. He gets what he wants but he also has to pay the ultimate price for it.

To me, such a mentality separates humans from self-learning machines.

Wink
Post 27 Aug 2017, 06:29
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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let us take a step back and re-define the words in usage,

what is ai?
what is self-learning machines?
how is ai, self-learning machines different from human?
what is life-forms?

you build a human, the only difference is, physical skin and anatomy, if without seeing this creation physically, you will never know and guess it is a created human,

it seems that judgement, types of treatment kicks in only after you verify / guess / suspect the another conscious is not the same race/form like you,

does anyone here treated me as non-life-form?
but what if one day you learn that sleepsleep is a bot?

so, the next question is,
if you could treat a non-life-form as life-form before you confirm it is non-life-form, what actually cause you to trigger the "different treatment" towards non-life-forms?
Post 27 Aug 2017, 08:41
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
sleepsleep wrote:
what if one day you learn that sleepsleep is a bot?
If so, I will have to rewrite the storyline of my second novel. As promised, I have added a new character that mimics you, who, after realizing the falsity of his religious belief, turns from a believer to a non-believer. (That's why I needed a term to describe such a conversion process.)

Don't worry. Right now, I am still working on the storyline; the details have not been finalized yet. The plot can be changed if necessary.

Wink
Post 27 Aug 2017, 09:12
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1430
YONG wrote:
We are going back to the question of whether AIs / self-learning machines can -- or should -- be treated as life-forms. Sigh. Confused
No, the question was whether only humans are capable of "genuine" human emotions. More specifically, what makes you think they can't have that?

Or are you actually saying we shouldn't treat them as humans even if they function exactly the same as humans in "thoughts" and mind (and not "mimic" only)? Rolling Eyes
Post 27 Aug 2017, 15:31
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sleepsleep



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YONG wrote:
If so, I will have to rewrite the storyline of my second novel. As promised, I have added a new character that mimics you, who, after realizing the falsity of his religious belief, turns from a believer to a non-believer. (That's why I needed a term to describe such a conversion process.)

cool!, Wink
i loved to be one of your new character Smile

what i scare is, one day, probably you will realize you are bot too, and we were all NPC in this worldly simulation, Laughing

everything that we did are exact output based on our program, eg, the idea of your story, the insertion of new character that mimic sleep bot, all these are pre-set flow for the story to move on, Laughing

until someone came up with the idea, what is free-will and what is not free-will, Embarassed

before i forget,

Furs wrote:
Or are you actually saying we shouldn't treat them as humans even if they function exactly the same as humans in "thoughts" and mind (and not "mimic" only)?

this is good question, hopefully YONG could reply why the double standard, Wink
Post 27 Aug 2017, 19:26
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Furs wrote:
Or are you actually saying we shouldn't treat them as humans even if they function exactly the same as humans in "thoughts" and mind (and not "mimic" only)? Rolling Eyes
sleepsleep wrote:
hopefully YONG could reply why the double standard
I wonder why the two of you did not even bother to take a look at the plot of the movie I mentioned:

Bicentennial Man (1999)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicentennial_Man_(film)

Despite its relatively-low rating, I found the movie both entertaining and deeply-philosophical.

If an AI / self-learning machine wants to be treated as a human, it has to experience "life" just like any other human. Most importantly, it has to face the inevitable -- death.

See, one standard applies to everything. Fair enough?

Wink
Post 28 Aug 2017, 02:32
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sleepsleep



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upon discovered the other conscious you are dealing with is not a human, you then pursue to use different treatment towards it,

what actually trigger such behaviour?

people don't want to die, at least i don't want to die, so death is actually a bug, a weakness,

why then demand non-human who could live forever to have this bug in order to receive a human treatment?

the idea "experience life" is what?
conscious already mean living and experiencing life,
Post 28 Aug 2017, 04:30
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
sleepsleep wrote:
upon discovered the other conscious you are dealing with is not a human, you then pursue to use different treatment towards it
What different treatment? The same treatment applies to all. You can't selectively pick the good stuff of life and reject its bad stuff -- that is not living. If an AI / self-learning machine wants to be treated as a human, acting like a human is not enough -- it has to experience "life" just like any other human, meaning that it has to face sickness, aging, and death.

Wink
Post 28 Aug 2017, 04:46
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
sleepsleep wrote:
... so death is actually a bug, a weakness
We have been through this argument before.

What makes life so precious is that life has an expiration date.

If you want to live forever, just keep asking -- in the politest manner possible -- the sole time controller for extensions.

Wink
Post 28 Aug 2017, 04:50
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1430
YONG wrote:
What different treatment? The same treatment applies to all. You can't selectively pick the good stuff of life and reject its bad stuff -- that is not living. If an AI / self-learning machine wants to be treated as a human, acting like a human is not enough -- it has to experience "life" just like any other human, meaning that it has to face sickness, aging, and death.

Wink
Sorry, that's total nonsense. If humans find a way to alleviate pain, sickness or become immortal (age-wise), that's no reason to treat them worse. Can I say jealousy for those who can't afford it? I find it disgusting actually. Confused

Transhumanism and human augmentations are a good thing. Don't even need AI at all to disagree with your argument here, since it would also go against augmented humans.
Post 28 Aug 2017, 11:49
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Furs wrote:
Sorry, that's total nonsense. If humans find a way to alleviate pain, sickness or become immortal (age-wise), that's no reason to treat them worse. Can I say jealousy for those who can't afford it? I find it disgusting actually. Confused
Yeah, I find your argument disgusting -- because you, once again, shifted the focus to something else! Mad

We were talking about whether AIs / self-learning machines can -- or should -- be treated as humans. That's why I pointed out, using the plot of the movie I had mentioned earlier, that acting like humans was not good enough. If AIs / self-learning machines are not experiencing what we, human beings, are experiencing, why would they deserve to be treated as humans?

Make no mistake. I am NOT against technological advancement. But the things that you are talking about belong to human enhancement, which is another topic!
Post 28 Aug 2017, 12:28
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1430
Explain the difference between an AI that doesn't feel pain and a human that doesn't feel pain because he is augmented, in terms of deserving "rights".

Explain the difference between an AI that doesn't age and a human that doesn't age because he is augmented, in terms of deserving "rights".

And so on.

It's very much on topic, stop dodging the question just because you know you can't.

No matter how you look at it, or how off topic you think it is, the fact is that if you discriminate AIs because they don't age (for example), you implicitly discriminate any humans who don't age because of technological progress. Deal with it.
Post 28 Aug 2017, 13:03
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Furs wrote:
It's very much on topic, stop dodging the question just because you know you can't.
You are absolutely right -- "AI" and "human enhancement" are pretty much the same topic. I am terribly sorry for separating them.

Sigh! Confused
Post 28 Aug 2017, 13:31
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Furs wrote:
if you discriminate AIs because they don't age (for example), you implicitly discriminate any humans who don't age because of technological progress. Deal with it.
How can we discriminate AIs if they do not have any rights to begin with?

See, you just keep saying/assuming that non-living things have rights. I hate to break this to you again and again -- you are probably the only person, on the entire planet, that has such a unique view.

Wake up, please!

Wink
Post 28 Aug 2017, 13:41
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1430
YONG wrote:
You are absolutely right -- "AI" and "human enhancement" are pretty much the same topic. I am terribly sorry for separating them.
No, their ability to not age (in this example) is what is the same topic. Or to not feel pain, or to not get sick, or whatever else you said.

YONG wrote:
How can we discriminate AIs if they do not have any rights to begin with?
Nobody had any rights at beginning, and not even 50 years ago, black humans did not have any in certain developed nations. Your argument is thus void since it's not based on logic but on feelings.

YONG wrote:
non-living things
Definition of life is controversial so this argument is void since it's an opinion and not hard science.

I know I'm being way too uhm "calculated" in my replies now. Frankly I'm tired of hearing this argument about thinking their opinion is fact when they don't have any scientific basis for it (having "rights" and "life" are not hard science at all). I get enough of this shit from religious people (yes they also tell me to "wake up" btw), but at least they admit theirs is a religion... Rolling Eyes

You know religious pro-life people who say that abortion is murder because the fetus has life/soul/etc? How the hell are your arguments any different?

They don't define life and you don't define life either. Nobody does unless they do so with a measurable science, so stop using that stupid emotional argument.

Because I guarantee you that whatever you define life to be, I will show that either AIs "have life" using such criteria (that you defined life to be), or your definition will exclude transhumans from "having life". Either way it's bad scenario for you because it means AIs have life, or transhumans don't have life. And I find transhumans "not being alive" due to stupid arbitrary criteria as disgusting (not the AIs not having it).

Your definition is completely arbitrary and you need to wake up and realize it.


Oh one last thing: if you say transhumanism is a different topic, then I'm simply arguing against your life topic with it. See, this thread isn't about "the definition of life" so why use that argument? It's off topic. Wink

Because that's basically your argument against me with transhumanism.
Post 28 Aug 2017, 14:00
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sleepsleep



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sleepsleep wrote:

the idea "experience life" is what?

become a killer, rapist, in rage, become a dictator, rule by iron fists, etc

i guess if somehow ai captured and threatened you as hostage ~ you can't blame them after all you insist them to experience life, Wink

YONG wrote:

You are absolutely right -- "AI" and "human enhancement" are pretty much the same topic. I am terribly sorry for separating them.

according to your previous reply, in order to treat ai like other human, they must experience life, they must die and cease to exists,

since death is inevitable for human (at this moment, year 2017) ~ but we will probably find ways to deal with this bug in another 100 or so years,

human enhancement or whatever new terms you prefer, ~ we become forever living, we integrated into better and simpler physical body, basically, we could exists forever,

you see, in another view, ai could dies and perishes too, let say when another planet hits the earth or etc cosmic events,

YONG wrote:
If an AI / self-learning machine wants to be treated as a human, it has to experience "life" just like any other human. Most importantly, it has to face the inevitable -- death.

this doesn't makes sense, Wink
Post 28 Aug 2017, 22:17
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1430
sleepsleep wrote:
YONG wrote:
If an AI / self-learning machine wants to be treated as a human, it has to experience "life" just like any other human. Most importantly, it has to face the inevitable -- death.

this doesn't makes sense, Wink
Now that you mention it, that's true, lol.

How can human experience death? Death is final, end of experience. Razz
Post 28 Aug 2017, 22:31
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