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flat assembler > Heap > Term for the conversion from a believer to a non-believer

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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Term for the conversion from a believer to a non-believer
Does anyone know a term, in English, that describes the process through which a believer turns into a non-believer?

If other western languages have terms that give the needed meaning, please let me know as well.

Thanks in advance!

Wink
Post 23 Jun 2017, 13:48
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 815
Interesting question, I don't know the reverse word either. You're looking for a word, right? (otherwise it's fairly easy)
Post 23 Jun 2017, 14:13
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Dis-indoctrination? Un-indoctrination? De-indoctrination? Knocking some sense into someone (oh, sorry, that is more than one word). Oh, I know, I know: Scientificise.
Post 23 Jun 2017, 14:45
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sleepsleep



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YONG wrote:

Does anyone know a term, in English, that describes the process through which a believer turns into a non-believer?


i would say, the word enlightenment, accurately describe the process ~ a believer turns into a non-believer
Post 23 Jun 2017, 15:10
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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sleepsleep wrote:
... enlightenment ...

As in: "I've seen the light"?
Post 23 Jun 2017, 15:15
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sleepsleep



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@YONG,
when you say believer, it includes believers of every "stuffs" out there, including science believers too, Embarassed

idk if it is possible to not believe anything, Embarassed because the moment you don't believe anything, you are actually believing something, which is to believe nothing, and it sets the loop on,


revolution wrote:

As in: "I've seen the light"?


maybe, since light clears the darkness, but we got infrared camera now, Embarassed
light allow the paths to be seen, once you see light, you might could follow those paths, maybe, Wink idk
Post 23 Jun 2017, 15:23
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 187
Location: Off the scale in the third direction
Re: Term for the conversion from a believer to a non-believer

YONG wrote:
Does anyone know a term, in English, that describes the process through which a believer turns into a non-believer?



The term I've seen used is apostatization. The term "apostasy" has the usual pejorative meaning that is used about those who betray the tribe by leaving it and the technical non-judgmental meaning used by scientists.

When talking about their own experience Christians and ex-Christians often themselves talk about for example losing faith, waking up (to reality) and so on but this applies to both converting into it and leaving it.
Post 23 Jun 2017, 17:26
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
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Location: Off the scale in the third direction

sleepsleep wrote:
@YONG,
when you say believer, it includes believers of every "stuffs" out there, including science believers too, Embarassed

idk if it is possible to not believe anything, Embarassed because the moment you don't believe anything, you are actually believing something, which is to believe nothing, and it sets the loop on,



Everyone has a hierarchy of beliefs and values. If someone would tell me that he doesn't believe in literally anything there is no way I'd take him seriously. After all he believed it to be both possible and worth the effort to tell me that and that by itself already tells something about what they implicitly believe in.

It used to be trendy among atheists to say to Christians that “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

In a similar way those skeptics, who don't have faith in humanity, progress, science and technology almighty, tell other skeptics that "I contend we are both skeptics, I just hold one less ideology than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other ideologies, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Post 23 Jun 2017, 17:52
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Enko



Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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Mhh, what about "unbelieve"?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unbelieve


Quote:
Etymology[edit]
From un- +‎ believe.

Verb[edit]
unbelieve (third-person singular simple present unbelieves, present participle unbelieving, simple past and past participle unbelieved)

(transitive, intransitive) To lose, abandon, or relinquish belief in; stop believing.



I haven't seen it used though, the adjective form "unbelievable" seems to be more common.
Post 23 Jun 2017, 20:41
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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It seems people have assumed this topic is about religion. While that is a good example of beliefs, I think it misses the point that other beliefs can also be held without there being a religion involved. In a recently revived topic other types of beliefs also exist.

Sometimes beliefs match reality (or at least reality as we can perceive it). Sometimes beliefs are completely wacky. But all such beliefs can be reconciled against reality with good practices and proper scientific methodologies if the believer is willing to apply them.

BTW: A word that comes to mind is: Deprogramming.
Post 24 Jun 2017, 01:56
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Furs wrote:
You're looking for a word, right? (otherwise it's fairly easy)

Yes. I am checking whether such a word exists (in English or other western languages). If there is none, I, as an author, will invent one.

Wink
Post 24 Jun 2017, 02:18
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
@YONG,
when you say believer, it includes believers of every "stuffs" out there, including science believers too, Embarassed

Given the context, the meaning of "believer" is unambiguous.

For example, when we talk about computer hardware, the word "processor" would not mean "word processor". Right?

Wink
Post 24 Jun 2017, 02:23
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Re: Term for the conversion from a believer to a non-believer

nyrtzi wrote:
The term "apostasy" has the usual pejorative meaning that is used about those who betray the tribe by leaving it and the technical non-judgmental meaning used by scientists.

Apostasy is similar to defection, which is close to the needed meaning.

Wink
Post 24 Jun 2017, 02:29
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Enko wrote:
Mhh, what about "unbelieve"?

I haven't seen it used though, the adjective form "unbelievable" seems to be more common.

"Unbelieve" means "reject from belief", which seems to lack the conversion process.

Wink
Post 24 Jun 2017, 02:32
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
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Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

revolution wrote:
BTW: A word that comes to mind is: Deprogramming.

It is more like "conditioning" to force someone to abandon his/her belief.

Wink
Post 24 Jun 2017, 02:36
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Enko



Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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YONG wrote:

Enko wrote:
Mhh, what about "unbelieve"?

I haven't seen it used though, the adjective form "unbelievable" seems to be more common.

"Unbelieve" means "reject from belief", which seems to lack the conversion process.

Wink



Oh so you where looking for the name of the process.
Now I am wondering... whats the name of the process from which a non-believer becomes a believer?
without the religious connotation.

But now that I think more about it, if someone becomes a non-believer on X, he probably becomes a believer in Y, Z or a "believer in no X"
So my point is, wouldn't you be just switching believes? And so the term which applies for the process of becoming a believer should apply on becoming a non-believer.

And following this trail of thoughts, to become a believer in something you have to gain the knowledge/wisdom/experience which we could call "learning".
When you learn to believe you become a believer.
By forgetting or unlearning you would become a non believer. Forgetting is just erasing the memory/knowledge. While unlearning is just learning with a negative connotation.
One could have a bad habbit which needs unlearning, which would be learning to not perform the habbit.


So... by learning you become a non-believer.
Post 24 Jun 2017, 04:27
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Enko wrote:
Oh so you where looking for the name of the process.

In fact, I am looking for a verb -- and the corresponding noun -- that can be used to describe the process.

"Apostasy" and "defection" are close, but I want a term that is more specific -- from a believer to a non-believer.

I guess that I will have to invent one.

Wink
Post 24 Jun 2017, 04:46
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
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YONG wrote:
In fact, I am looking for a verb -- and the corresponding noun -- that can be used to describe the process.

"Apostasy" and "defection" are close, but I want a term that is more specific -- from a believer to a non-believer.



There is always secularization in which the religious gets watered down towards irrelevancy until only the form (if even that) is left without any content.
Post 24 Jun 2017, 11:49
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

nyrtzi wrote:
There is always secularization in which the religious gets watered down towards irrelevancy until only the form (if even that) is left without any content.

Well, secularization refers to a social & cultural process; what I need is an "individualized" secularization.

Wink
Post 24 Jun 2017, 12:10
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 815
@Enko: I don't think "unbelieving" means forgetting or erasing the memory. It's not like someone who becomes an atheist suddenly forgets/erases information about religion from his memory, on the contrary he has to know about it else he might become a believer again since he wouldn't even know why he erased it in the first place.
Post 24 Jun 2017, 12:42
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