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flat assembler > Heap > Linux hardware advice: What to buy?

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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1071

Just dual boot then? I don't have much experience with laptops, I just don't like them for the simple reason that they are "premade" in components, which is obviously your problem here in the first place (they come bundled with Windows). I like to pick my components individually, never used a premade desktop either.

Now I know you say it will be a time sink, but what exactly do you mean by time sink? Learning Linux? Consider it a good learning experience and training for your brain. Especially as a programmer, always useful to know how Unix/Linux world works, trust me, compared to just the Windows world. (also learning new things keeps your brain in shape, and at least it's more useful than playing "brain games" since it's useful knowledge)

Other than that, for your casual "usage" requirements, it should work out of the box if you use a distro that comes "bundled" with alot of "easy" stuff for newbies, like Linux Mint. (you can always remove junk you don't need after you're comfortable, distros aren't anything special other than a specific collection of packages etc)


BTW I'm surprised it won't work on your 2003 laptop. That's quite odd. What distro/kernel did you try? Confused
Post 29 May 2017, 10:29
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 7125
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699

i think, revolution should just get a macbook air / pro, they are used by kernel developers which shine too brightly during kernel conference,

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookAir
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookPro

good luck, revolution
Post 29 May 2017, 11:28
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1071

Absolutely not! Macs are just disgusting in terms of everything. Everything backwards. You pay more to get a shittier OS and weaker hardware. I just hate Macs with a passion Razz

If you think Windows is "locked down" and "proprietary" you really haven't seen Macs and their entire development kit. At least Microsoft use C++ not a language "designed" for their OS environment specifically (Apple use Objective C). Fuck Apple.
Post 29 May 2017, 11:56
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15641
Location: Thasus


Furs wrote:
Now I know you say it will be a time sink, but what exactly do you mean by time sink? Learning Linux?

Leaning Linux is different from using Linux. First I have to be able to use it. It is no fun to be using a distorted display in a non-native resolution, having it shutdown due to thermal overload because the fan won't respond to CPU load, and struggling to position the cursor to an accuracy of less than 20 pixels. That is not learning, that is suffering.
Post 29 May 2017, 12:08
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15641
Location: Thasus

Do Macs have removable batteries with standard cell sizes? The ones I have seen are all integrated. Which seems typical for the current trend of throwaway systems.
Post 29 May 2017, 12:13
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
Which seems typical for the current trend of throwaway systems.

Don't play the "environmental protection" card here. Old systems consume much more power and run much slower. Overall, there is no net gain by sticking to outdated systems.

Wink
Post 29 May 2017, 13:25
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15641
Location: Thasus

I never mentioned the environment. That appears to have come from you only. In fact I was thinking more along wasting time and money upgrading for no good reason.

But since you want to mention the environment and energy consumption, don't forget to include the energy required to produce a whole new system and the energy consumed in its subsequent disposal when you do your computations. It is not just the runtime energy that you need to consider, but also the initial production energy, and disposal energy. I haven't done the figures myself, but I suspect that buying a new replacement every few years is a net negative in terms of energy consumed.
Post 29 May 2017, 13:31
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 7125
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699

the whole laptop business and all other businesses, is all about monies and profit, never about environment, upgradable, modular, recycle, etc ...

and this is the exact reason, why human is the cancer on earth,

we have great technologies, ideas, concepts, etc to create a better world, ...

people who got no resources thinking about changes,
people who having resources thinking about maintaining the status, profit, power, etc

this is also a remark to my own self, try changes, and may we all choose a better changes, improve ourselves, improve others,

there are infinite ways to make things better,
Post 29 May 2017, 14:07
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1071


revolution wrote:
Leaning Linux is different from using Linux. First I have to be able to use it. It is no fun to be using a distorted display in a non-native resolution, having it shutdown due to thermal overload because the fan won't respond to CPU load, and struggling to position the cursor to an accuracy of less than 20 pixels. That is not learning, that is suffering.

Never had such an issue. You are using proprietary drivers, right? Intel's drivers are open source to begin with, and Nvidia have excellent drivers for Linux. (now, if you want to install on a system with .deb packages, you can use PPA, it's super easy to install, I can give you steps if you need it for Nvidia card with Linux Mint or Ubuntu or Debian etc.)
Post 29 May 2017, 16:51
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15641
Location: Thasus


Furs wrote:
You are using proprietary drivers, right? Intel's drivers are open source to begin with, and Nvidia have excellent drivers for Linux. (now, if you want to install on a system with .deb packages, you can use PPA, it's super easy to install, I can give you steps if you need it for Nvidia card with Linux Mint or Ubuntu or Debian etc.)

Yes, I'm using the proprietary drivers that came with the machine when it was purchased. For my current machine, it is AMD with the GPU and CPU in the same package. For my older 2003 machine the WiFi card cannot be used and the keyboard mapping is all wrong.

But anyhow, none of those details are important. There might, or might not, be drivers available to fix my specific problems. I don't know. It's very hard to get motivated to spend time researching possible fixes when basic stuff like the keyboard mapping, or mouse positioning problems make it totally unusable in any nice way.

So I would like to find a "newbie solution" if it is available. Some combination of things that works together without having to research and trial hundreds of potential fixes. I've done a lot of searching before asking here. But not everything can be found by Internet searching alone. Sometimes people have unique experiences that they don't post to publicly indexable websites. Maybe someone here has come across something that I am trying to find. Maybe not. If I can find it that would be great. If it is really not a thing, then I will have to consider my other limited options like the overpriced pre-built systems (kind of like a Linux tax in a way, only it doesn't go to the Linux devs, but some CEOs pocket instead).

I realise that my "picky" criteria might be a little strict for some. But my past experience has taught me to never compromise on some things, and these are the things I absolutely must have.
Post 29 May 2017, 22:12
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
In fact I was thinking more along wasting time and money upgrading for no good reason.

You probably could save a great deal of time by using a much faster system. If no-one bothers to upgrade, how could the tech companies sustain their business? At the end of the day, no new tech would be developed and everyone would be stuck with a 2003 laptop.


revolution wrote:
... but I suspect that buying a new replacement every few years is a net negative in terms of energy consumed.

Do we need to take into account the gain in efficiency and the reduced heat emission?

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 01:49
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
I realise that my "picky" criteria might be a little strict for some. But my past experience has taught me to never compromise on some things, and these are the things I absolutely must have.

In fact, those thin, rectangular lithium laptop batteries are pretty standard nowadays. I believe that you can definitely buy a replacement, say, in 2022.

As for spinning HDDs, let's face it, they are nothing but outdated tech. In three to five years, they will be completely replaced by SSDs -- I am talking about newly-manufactured laptops, of course.

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 02:03
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15641
Location: Thasus


YONG wrote:
Do we need to take into account the gain in efficiency and the reduced heat emission?

Yes, of course. I still don't think the efficiency gain is enough to overcome the initial production requirement. You save some, you lose some, like everything, it is a trade-off. Its just a matter of where that trade-off point is. I would be very pleased to see an actual calculation for it. I don't have enough knowledge to do it myself though.

YONG wrote:
In fact, those thin, rectangular lithium laptop batteries are pretty standard nowadays. I believe that you can definitely buy a replacement, say, in 2022.

This is a surprise to me. Every removable battery pack I have ever seen uses 18650 cells inside. They are easily obtained and replaced. But those integrated Li-poly flat packs, IME, are always custom shaped for each system. I often see manufacturers selling spares of those and they have to stock many different models to support each of the systems they are intended for. And there is no standard size Li-poly packs that I am aware of. You can't buy them as single pieces, they have a dizzying array of sizes to choose from. X x Y x Z sizes in all imaginable variations, so they need to be bulk ordered with MOQs in the thousands.

YONG wrote:
As for spinning HDDs, let's face it, they are nothing but outdated tech. In three to five years, they will be completely replaced by SSDs -- I am talking about newly-manufactured laptops, of course.

This I hope is not correct. HDDs are a huge market still. They are an order of magnitude cheaper for the same capacity. But if you are correct then I will be very sad. I don't see SSDs as being cost effective. A modicum of extra performance for a huge premium in price.
Post 30 May 2017, 03:20
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
[Every removable battery pack I have ever seen uses 18650 cells inside. They are easily obtained and replaced.

Those 18650 cells must give you certain sentimental feelings. Maybe it's their cylindrical shapes.

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 04:31
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
And there is no standard size Li-poly packs that I am aware of. You can't buy them as single pieces, they have a dizzying array of sizes to choose from. X x Y x Z sizes in all imaginable variations, so they need to be bulk ordered with MOQs in the thousands.

Really?

Acer Chromebook 11 (2016) Review - IPS Display - $179 - CB3-131
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfEhwgfdFG4

Acer Chromebook CB3-131 Series AC15A3J Lithium Ion Battery Pack
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acer-Chromebook-CB3-131-Series-AC15A3J-Lithium-Ion-Battery-Pack-KT-00303-017-/282464430264?hash=item41c43128b8:g:pKQAAOSwq1JZDjfj

You can order just one.

Satisfied?

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 04:36
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
A modicum of extra performance for a huge premium in price.

Really?

The read speed of a modern SSD is around 4 times that of a traditional spinning HDD whereas the write speed is around 3.5 to 4 times. And you call such improvements "modicum"?

Note that I am just talking about consumer-grade SDDs.

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 04:40
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15641
Location: Thasus

Yes, a modicum. They are great for impatient people. But in reality no one except a rare few would use them on a continuous basis that would demand such rates. HDDs are perfectly adequate for almost everyone, just be patient and give yourself time to ponder things instead of rushing in and being hasty.
Post 30 May 2017, 04:44
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15641
Location: Thasus


YONG wrote:
You can order just one.

Satisfied?

No, not satisfied. They are manufacturer specific. Can you find battery packs for 10 year old systems? On any make or model? Plus the manufacturers mark up the prices enormously. Instead I can replace the 18650 cells for a fraction of the cost and take advantage of the higher capacities of new cell designs at the same time. I don't need to rely on any manufacturer still making stock for old models.

Anyhow, I've been thought this before and I will no longer buy anything with custom battery cell sizes or shapes. It creates vendor lock-in and reliance. It is a non-negotiable criterion for me.


Edit: I was talking about the internal cells of the battery packs. Those Li-poly packs have internal rectangular cells of custom sizes. Unless I need to replace a few thousand at a time, it is very unlikely to be able to buy cells the right size that fit.
Post 30 May 2017, 04:50
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
But in reality no one except a rare few would use them on a continuous basis that would demand such rates.

Many "casual" users require such speeds, especially when they need to constantly create/modify high-quality video files. In fact, one of the mods has mentioned that he/she has to deal with big files on a regular basis and thus the small SSDs in most Chromebooks can never meet his/her needs. Guess who? Rolling Eyes

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 06:18
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
They are manufacturer specific. Can you find battery packs for 10 year old systems? On any make or model? Plus the manufacturers mark up the prices enormously.

The sizes of most laptops are pretty standard: 11.6", 13.3", 14", 15.6", and so forth. It is very unlikely that the corresponding lithium battery packs will have any big changes in sizes and/or dimensions in the foreseeable future.

Besides, why would you even need to consider the "general" case? Your laptop must come from one of the major manufacturers and must belong to a specific model and size. You only need to make sure that replacement battery packs for your specific model are available for a reasonably-long period of time.

Wink
Post 30 May 2017, 06:29
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