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flat assembler > Heap > Women can't code. Period!

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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2124
Location: Usono (aka, USA)

ender wrote:

At the risk of being called a chauvinist, I rather lean towards the system error's point of view (well, maybe without putting any hard number on it).
Speaking solely from my personal experience, I have met dozens of brilliant male programmers; regretfully, not so many of female ones, though.
Enumerating women that have/had successful research carrier does not help either, to say the least, as they are still outnumbered by their "male counterparts".



Only the work (result) matters, not who made it. Do good work, and let the rest fall into place. A good appearance with shoddy work is useless.


Quote:

There is little doubt about female/male brains being different and yet, opposing their effect on the skills of women and men have recently become a trademark of social correctness.
The point is, we do not have a definite answer to how these differences relate to cognitive skills (in particular analytical thinking and creative problem solving, as probably being one of the most regarded for "coding").



Everyone's brain is different. We're all individuals. Maybe the numbers are sometimes different, but so what? Did you really expect exactly 50% / 50% in every field?


Quote:

To makes things even worse, we all carry around a huge baggage of social conditioning, effect of which may ripple around for generations (indeed, even years after abolishing apartheid, there still is a "race gap" between education levels and, in consequence, jobs, salaries, lifespan etc.)



There is a difference between something being absolutely forbidden and just unpopular. Some things are hard, and some things are flat out impossible under all circumstances. And, of course, most things in life aren't worth worrying about, they just aren't important (no matter how many loud voices scream from the rooftops). It's hard not to be cynical when everything is treated as life and death.


Quote:

My bottom line is that all we have are numbers that had so far failed to link the effect with the cause, simply because the whole system has way too many variables.
As such, let these numbers only be used for keeping the records (and, well, maybe making occasional, non-hostile jokes Wink)



Regrettably, non-hostile jokes are still unwanted attention and thus considered dross. Hey, did you notice that Rutkowska (whose name I couldn't remember how to pronounce or spell) has a Twitter account? Even an About Me on her website? And a photo? Do you think she'd appreciate a (very) benign, innocuous joke about her (quite photogenic) appearance? DOUBT IT HIGHLY!!! "Edzigu min!" ... hey, she's Polish, maybe she'd laugh, right? I DARE YOU TO TWEET THAT TO HER! But hey, it's your funeral. Embarassed
Post 19 Mar 2017, 22:45
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
If we change the focus to programming languages, I feel that it then starts to have more to do with art (and I like to look at it this way, I consider many of my own choices in programming the means of self-expression that are very artistic).

We all know that you are an artist -- an assembly artist, to be precise. You need not emphasize such a well-known fact over and over again.

Wink
Post 20 Mar 2017, 03:13
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6916
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699

YONG wrote:
We all know that you are an artist -- an assembly artist, to be precise. You need not emphasize such a well-known fact over and over again.


i think it is kinda rude to say so, maybe,
because my english is bad as i might understood it wrongly, idk

i think for a matter of fact, we all know women can code, and probably their numbers just smaller compare to men, not sure if it is useful to group those who can code by gender,

we all know women got more important and holly task to perform,
every conscious here, came from their mother's womb, without our mother, we won't be here, typing in this board, thank you mother, thank you women,
Post 20 Mar 2017, 07:27
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:

YONG wrote:
We all know that you are an artist -- an assembly artist, to be precise. You need not emphasize such a well-known fact over and over again.

i think it is kinda rude to say so, maybe,
because my english is bad as i might understood it wrongly, idk

The admin and the mods can access the "All about [the user]" field in their profiles whereas ordinary members can't.

T.G. has been calling himself "an assembly artist" for many years. This is a well-known fact. Most, if not all, of the forum members know about it.

I don't think it is "rude" to state and comment on such a well-known fact.

Maybe I will join mbr_tsr very soon. Sigh!

Confused
Post 20 Mar 2017, 08:11
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6582
Location: Kraków, Poland

YONG wrote:
T.G. has been calling himself "an assembly artist" for many years. This is a well-known fact. Most, if not all, of the forum members know about it.

I don't think it is "rude" to state and comment on such a well-known fact.

When I use such "title" it may sound a bit pretentious, but I'm keeping it as a kind of souvenir taken from the old Win32ASM Community. The users there had automatically granted titles based on a number of posts, if I recall correctly, but moderators/administrators had custom titles of their own choosing. When I was granted a sub-forum for fasm and became its moderator, I was granted such choice, and I asked for "Assembly Artist" title, because then I thought that it was actually a fresh idea. Not much later I started this message board specifically for fasm, but I kept it reminiscent of its "ancestor", and I also kept using the same title to maintain the sense of continuity.
Post 20 Mar 2017, 09:49
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 267
It's not like tom claims Master of Assembly.
Post 20 Mar 2017, 10:48
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 814
But programming/code is an art for some of us. When you look at code and think how "beautiful" it is, both input and output (that is, in assembly, you care of how beautiful the output code is as well, even if you code in a HLL), how is that not an art for you?

Not everyone writes code in a hurry "just to make it work". Sure we do that sometimes especially for personal tools/scripts we make just to automate our stuff, but some of us appreciate code itself in its beauty. Ever skimmed through an algorithm with a clever/clean/simple implementation and thought how beautiful it makes it look? Or a data structure and thought how elegant it is designed? Or disassembled the output to look at it not for debugging (even if from a HLL)? If not, I guess you will never understand us Smile

Even if the result doesn't have any significant difference (processing speed or memory use). so it's not always what people call "practical". That's why it's an "art" for some.

(Of course such artistic appreciation is subjective, I'm sure some people prefer different types of code "beauty", but that's not my point; art is mostly subjective also)
Post 20 Mar 2017, 11:54
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6916
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699

YONG wrote:
I don't think it is "rude" to state and comment on such a well-known fact.


i apologize for my misunderstanding, sorry YONG
Post 20 Mar 2017, 12:13
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
i apologize for my misunderstanding, sorry YONG

No need to apologize. This message board still supports the freedom of speech.

Wink
Post 20 Mar 2017, 12:22
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
When I use such "title" it may sound a bit pretentious.

No, it does not sound "pretentious" to me. In fact, most, if not all, of the forum members would agree that you are a top-notch coder that has a unique coding style: comment-less. The densely-packed source code of fasm is actually an art form on its own.

Wink
Post 20 Mar 2017, 12:30
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system error



Joined: 01 Sep 2013
Posts: 667
Is programming an Art or Science?

Is compiler-writing considered an Art or Science?

Is a language considered an Art or Science?

To be or not to be...
Post 21 Mar 2017, 06:04
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system error



Joined: 01 Sep 2013
Posts: 667

rugxulo wrote:
Only the work (result) matters, not who made it. Do good work, and let the rest fall into place



You probably haven't heard these things called group dynamics, work culture and stuff. Women coders usually take longer time than males in interpreting a flowchart. Why? That's because they see it from a kitchen floor plan layout point of view.

Same like women drivers. That's nasty.
Post 21 Mar 2017, 06:31
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

system error wrote:
Is programming an Art or Science?

Is compiler-writing considered an Art or Science?

Is a language considered an Art or Science?

To be or not to be...

The title of the following book answers your questions in an elegant manner:

The Art of Assembly Language, 2nd Edition
http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781593272074.do

Wink
Post 21 Mar 2017, 06:55
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system error



Joined: 01 Sep 2013
Posts: 667

YONG wrote:

system error wrote:
Is programming an Art or Science?

Is compiler-writing considered an Art or Science?

Is a language considered an Art or Science?

To be or not to be...

The title of the following book answers your questions in an elegant manner:

The Art of Assembly Language, 2nd Edition
http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781593272074.do

Wink



Naaaaaahhhhhh...
Post 21 Mar 2017, 08:11
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15152
Location: GW170817
"Art" would suggest to me form over function. Is that what others here mean by "art"?
Post 21 Mar 2017, 10:43
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6582
Location: Kraków, Poland

revolution wrote:
"Art" would suggest to me form over function. Is that what others here mean by "art"?

If by "over" you mean "on top of" then yes. Wink
Post 21 Mar 2017, 10:46
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15152
Location: GW170817
By "over" I mean "more important than".
Post 21 Mar 2017, 11:05
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6582
Location: Kraków, Poland

revolution wrote:
By "over" I mean "more important than".

I sense a false dichotomy here (and my previous comment was ironic).
Post 21 Mar 2017, 11:24
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15152
Location: GW170817
I see form and function as orthogonal to each other. We can have none, one, or both. But "art" IME is almost always: form is the most important attribute, function comes second, if at all. Naturally it depends upon the artist as to what they personally want to do.

So my question was: Do others see "art" as more about form and less about function?
Post 21 Mar 2017, 13:05
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6582
Location: Kraków, Poland

revolution wrote:
I see form and function as orthogonal to each other. We can have none, one, or both. But "art" IME is almost always: form is the most important attribute, function comes second, if at all. Naturally it depends upon the artist as to what they personally want to do.

I do not think that they are fully orthogonal when speaking of good art. It is hard to appreciate something beautifully stylized when it fails in its basic function. It would be like writing a novel with a rich, impressive language, but having nothing interesting to say. Great art is not only a form, it also needs a substance. And any beauty of an implementation of an algorithm would be immediately spoiled if it didn't actually work.
Post 21 Mar 2017, 13:25
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