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flat assembler > Heap > Women can't code. Period!

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system error



Joined: 01 Sep 2013
Posts: 667
Women can't code. Period!
I am about to start a gender war in here because I assume that 99.9% of members here are males.

What do you think? Can women code without worrying too much about their polished nails? Can they do serious coding in their high heels and short skirts? I mean like, seriously??

Well??
Post 19 Mar 2017, 01:10
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2624
Location: dank orb
LOL, never underestimate the power. Women that can code are exceptional in ability. So much so that I wish there were more female coders.
Post 19 Mar 2017, 01:32
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

bitRAKE wrote:
Women that can code are exceptional in ability.

That is true. The same applies to mathematicians. Here is a prime example:

Proving Pick's Theorem | Infinite Series
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYW1zOMCQno

She looks gorgeous!

Wink
Post 19 Mar 2017, 01:54
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2624
Location: dank orb
I have that book - it's wonderful.

Now that I think about it: I wonder if these exceptional women discourage other women from entering their respective fields?
Post 19 Mar 2017, 02:13
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 267
You don't know the power of the dark side.

sleepsleep will elaborate
Post 19 Mar 2017, 02:56
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 267
Image


Last edited by guignol on 19 Mar 2017, 05:17; edited 3 times in total
Post 19 Mar 2017, 04:33
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Your image link is broken. Check it out.
Post 19 Mar 2017, 05:02
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 267
sinsi fancies 300, might be a girl.
Post 19 Mar 2017, 05:23
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Trinitek



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 257
I'll take the bait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

The military has restrictions on makeup and nail polish nonsense. Wink
Post 19 Mar 2017, 05:38
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15152
Location: GW170817
Men can't code either.
Post 19 Mar 2017, 05:59
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sinsi



Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 680
Location: Adelaide
Ada Lovelace

Quote:
...she is often regarded as the first to recognise the full potential of a "computing machine" and the first computer programmer.




guignol wrote:
sinsi fancies 300, might be a girl.


???
Post 19 Mar 2017, 06:13
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E
Check this out if you have time:

Gender Codes: Why Women Are Leaving Computing (2010)
http://as.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470597194.html

Quote:
The computing profession faces a serious gender crisis. Today, fewer women enter computing than anytime in the past 25 years.


Wink
Post 19 Mar 2017, 08:43
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6582
Location: Kraków, Poland

revolution wrote:
Men can't code either.

I'd say it's about right.
Post 19 Mar 2017, 08:54
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2124
Location: Usono (aka, USA)
Wikipedia's Category:Women Computer Scientists lists quite a few.

I'm no computing professional, only a hobbyist, and I don't have a Comp. Sci. degree, so I'm out of the loop. Yet, of the list above, even I can informally recognize the following (having never interacted with them via email or similar although E.R. is very active on news://comp.lang.forth): Monica Lam, Adele Goldberg, Grace Hopper, Elizabeth Rather, Allison Randal. And I wonder why no mention of Corinna Vinschen or Joanna Rutkowska.

Personally, I don't know the personal details of 99% of people that I interact with online. Who cares? Code is code, use your brain.
Post 19 Mar 2017, 16:49
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AsmGuru62



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1386
Location: Toronto, Canada
In the 80s I worked in russian think tank (computer systems was one of its areas).
Most of mathematicians there were ladies.
They could code very well, actually - same as guys.
Those were times of PL, COBOL, FORTRAN and IBM-360 ASSEMBLER.
I've seen sources from ladies - impressive.
Post 19 Mar 2017, 16:52
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2124
Location: Usono (aka, USA)

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:

revolution wrote:
Men can't code either.

I'd say it's about right.



I don't grok Perl, but even I read an interview once with Allison Randal where she said (and I found the quote): "My love for programming languages is very much akin (and I swear linked to the same part of my brain) as my love for human languages".

So yes, women are well-known to be proficient with languages (no surprise, it's what humans do, they talk).
Post 19 Mar 2017, 17:09
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6916
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699

system error wrote:

I assume that 99.9% of members here are males.


i think shemale is majority here,
women can't code probably, but shemale can code! shemale rocks!
Post 19 Mar 2017, 17:36
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Tomasz Grysztar
Assembly Artist


Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 6582
Location: Kraków, Poland

rugxulo wrote:

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:

revolution wrote:
Men can't code either.

I'd say it's about right.

I don't grok Perl, but even I read an interview once with Allison Randal where she said (and I found the quote): "My love for programming languages is very much akin (and I swear linked to the same part of my brain) as my love for human languages".

So yes, women are well-known to be proficient with languages (no surprise, it's what humans do, they talk).

If we change the focus to programming languages, I feel that it then starts to have more to do with art (and I like to look at it this way, I consider many of my own choices in programming the means of self-expression that are very artistic). However the word "code" always sounds in my ears as something less focused on artistic and language/expression aspects of programming, and more just on getting the job done.

And when I agreed that men are bad at coding, what I had in mind was that people are in fact very bad at logical thinking. Every job that requires discipline of rational thought is hard for us. It requires a self-awareness of the human shortcomings, we need to focus on every detail and double-check every place where could make a mistake - and we are going to make these mistakes, because we are human. A rigorous thought is a hard work, because it is a constant fight against the very human nature. From this point of view I see no reason why either man or woman would have any serious advantage over each other in tasks like coding - we are all strongly disadvantaged there.

Because jobs like coding or proving mathematical theorems, etc. require such a hard work to construct the logical thoughts and double-check them, I believe that the main resources that are required to get things done are a motivation and persistence. And the environment (including things like cultural norms) can easily destroy any motivation or prevent it from forming in the first place. This is what I see as the main reason why inequalites in achievements among different groups exist. I believe that I would be just as bad at coding as a woman as I am as a man, but I think that as a man I was less discouraged from doing it.
Post 19 Mar 2017, 17:49
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ender



Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 11
Location: London, UK
It is pretty hard to add anything on top of Tomasz' response - let me diverge then. Wink

At the risk of being called a chauvinist, I rather lean towards the system error's point of view (well, maybe without putting any hard number on it).
Speaking solely from my personal experience, I have met dozens of brilliant male programmers; regretfully, not so many of female ones, though.
Enumerating women that have/had successful research carrier does not help either, to say the least, as they are still outnumbered by their "male counterparts".

There is little doubt about female/male brains being different (Wiki) and yet, opposing their effect on the skills of women and men have recently become a trademark of social correctness.
The point is, we do not have a definite answer to how these differences relate to cognitive skills (in particular analytical thinking and creative problem solving, as probably being one of the most regarded for "coding").
To makes things even worse, we all carry around a huge baggage of social conditioning, effect of which may ripple around for generations (indeed, even years after abolishing apartheid, there still is a "race gap" between education levels and, in consequence, jobs, salaries, lifespan etc.)

My bottom line is that all we have are numbers that had so far failed to link the effect with the cause, simply because the whole system has way too many variables.
As such, let these numbers only be used for keeping the records (and, well, maybe making occasional, non-hostile jokes Wink)
Post 19 Mar 2017, 19:41
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rugxulo



Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2124
Location: Usono (aka, USA)

Tomasz Grysztar wrote:

rugxulo wrote:
So yes, women are well-known to be proficient with languages (no surprise, it's what humans do, they talk).

If we change the focus to programming languages, I feel that it then starts to have more to do with art (and I like to look at it this way, I consider many of my own choices in programming the means of self-expression that are very artistic). However the word "code" always sounds in my ears as something less focused on artistic and language/expression aspects of programming, and more just on getting the job done.



I scrapped yet another post where I mentioned straddling the line between pragmatism (getting the job done, first and foremost, fighting against errors) and all the secondary problems (readability, portability, efficiency).

"Necessity is the mother of invention." And Comp. Sci. did somewhat grow out of mathematics. So a lot of it is indeed due to a direct personal need to solve a specific problem.

But yes, the artistic side does come in later. After all, in computing, it's not so much "what" you accomplish as "how" you do it. Some methods are definitely better than others. But I think we spend too much time on that instead of just getting the job done.


Quote:

And when I agreed that men are bad at coding, what I had in mind was that people are in fact very bad at logical thinking. Every job that requires discipline of rational thought is hard for us. It requires a self-awareness of the human shortcomings, we need to focus on every detail and double-check every place where could make a mistake - and we are going to make these mistakes, because we are human. A rigorous thought is a hard work, because it is a constant fight against the very human nature. From this point of view I see no reason why either man or woman would have any serious advantage over each other in tasks like coding - we are all strongly disadvantaged there.



A computer is normally very precise, very limited in what it can handle. So yes, precision is extremely important (for the most part). But "to err is human". Ironic that we make the machines but can't hardly use them!

Henry Spencer once wrote (1987) the Ten Commandments for C Programmers, which heavily emphasized error-checking over readability and portability. (Don't forget Murphy's Law: "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.")


Quote:

Because jobs like coding or proving mathematical theorems, etc. require such a hard work to construct the logical thoughts and double-check them, I believe that the main resources that are required to get things done are a motivation and persistence. And the environment (including things like cultural norms) can easily destroy any motivation or prevent it from forming in the first place. This is what I see as the main reason why inequalites in achievements among different groups exist. I believe that I would be just as bad at coding as a woman as I am as a man, but I think that as a man I was less discouraged from doing it.



I feel like we overestimate societal "problems" when there is rarely any concrete barrier to entry (anymore). Maybe the sky isn't the limit, but there's still room for personal growth, if interested. You have to start somewhere, by yourself. It can't all be given on a silver platter.

"Practice makes perfect." So one who never practices can never achieve proficiency. There is no one else to blame but oneself for lack of diligence. It's easier than ever to be self-taught, and it is easily supplemented by various online material (docs, help texts, wikis). "Where there's a will, there's a way." ("Don't let your dreams be dreams. Just do it!" "Shut up and hack!")

It's the same as learning a language, you have to open a book and start memorizing, pronouncing, reading example texts, etc. You have do it yourself, motivate yourself. Of course, where there is no concrete need, it's harder to do, but sometimes people just like learning (for fun, puzzle solving, etc).

I do agree that people online are overly aggressive, but in a purely technical context, there should be no need (or room) for politics, polemics, arguments anyways. Everything should be focused strictly on technical concerns (coding, testing, etc).

Granted, I'm not a very good programmer, and it's only a fun hobby for me. But I had no outside help either, so you don't absolutely need personal mentors to coddle your every move (although the Internet did play a big role, obviously).
Post 19 Mar 2017, 21:47
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