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flat assembler > Heap > A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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Would a Work-Free World Be So Bad?
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/06/would-a-world-without-work-be-so-bad/488711/


Quote:
Fears of civilization-wide idleness are based too much on the downsides of being unemployed in a society premised on the concept of employment.
A 1567 painting by Pieter Bruegel the Elder depicts a mythical land of plenty, where people grow idle in the absence of work. Wikimedia

People have speculated for centuries about a future without work, and today is no different, with academics, writers, and activists once again warning that technology is replacing human workers. Some imagine that the coming work-free world will be defined by inequality: A few wealthy people will own all the capital, and the masses will struggle in an impoverished wasteland.

Post 05 Jul 2016, 20:22
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 899

Indeed, I guess most people miss the fact that a basic income is just that: basic. It won't take care of all your needs, if you have higher needs (or luxuries) in mind. Generally people want to stand out from the crowd so those same people will still do it in one way or another.

Obviously not all jobs have to be replaced for this to be required. Even replacing half the current jobs will require some sort of basic income, in my opinion. Because new jobs are created at a slower rate due to requiring "new" human education, and that's not going to change like technology does. We're just stuck with our slow rates while technology keeps improving.

Now imagine a scenario where we have only 10% of the jobs left (including new ones) compared to today, which will happen anyway. (like I said before, this is because CREATING a new job requires education + qualification for it, since obviously new jobs = mental jobs, and that RATE is FIXED or just extremely slow at biological evolution levels...)

In this scenario 90% of the people will survive on basic income. It should be enough that they live comfortably as a middle class worker does right now.

However, the rest 10% which do the work should of course aim for more luxuries and so on. A basic income doesn't mean you get infinite money... but it needs to be such that the few % of humans who are privileged to find work in the future get the extra luxuries available, because they want to stand out from the "normal" middle class life.


Majority of people will of course ask this question: "Why should I work, if I can get this comfortable life for free?" and that, indeed, is a valid question. And the answer is simple too: you shouldn't. The people who respond with "because I want to be special compared to the majority of people" NEED to be the minority, so that's perfectly fine, that's how it works out.

It's not a bad thing that the question seems very obvious for the majority. Because it misses the point. And gifted people able to compete with the higher standards in the mental jobs (as computers become smarter and smarter) would be rare, anyway. Average Joe definitely has no place in there. And that's fine, for him the answer is, "don't work".

(eventually all jobs will be replaced, at the Singularity, Kurzweil said by 2050 or something I suppose?)



EDIT: It is, sort of, like the open-source model employed by Canonical (I think?). You get basic income/money for free to enjoy life.

But if you want more (like specialized support for Linux for you directly from Canonical), you have to work (i.e pay extra).

The minority with the proper qualifications will do it.
Post 06 Jul 2016, 16:42
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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"Something Big" Indeed Came - Bernanke's Japan Visit Unveils "Helicopter Money", Sparks Monster Rally

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-11/something-big-indeed-came-bernankes-japan-visit-sparks-monster-rally-after-helicopte

URGENT! BANK RUNS HAVE BEGUN IN ITALY!!!!! ATM's Being Emptied!!!!
https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/1625

anybody from italy could verify if their country's bank atm emptied?
Post 11 Jul 2016, 17:02
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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i thought of a way to steer through this upcoming economy and financial crisis,

let interest of loan, and dividend of deposit be paid through raw materials, crops, palm oil, fruits or etc, it must be grow-able harvest-able materials that output by nature,

the main reason why poor getting poorer and rich getting richer is because the function of bank through fractional reserve allow bankers to collect enormous loan interest, basically with every 1,000 dollar deposit, bank could loan out nearly 7 times its initial amount and collect its loan interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

absolutely insane and very clear picture, this financial system is rigged, eventually bankers will own everything, the only state for general people in the end is to become slave.

once they settle their business with low income group, they will target middle and high income group by implementing negative interest rate for their deposit.

Two More Banks Start Charging Select Clients For Holding Cash
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-19/bank-ireland-royal-bank-scotland-start-charging-select-clients-holding-cash

Quote:
Overnight, the Irish Times reported that Bank of Ireland is set to become the first domestic financial institution to pass on the ECB's negative rates to customers for placing their money on deposit with the bank. The newspaper has learned that Bank of Ireland, which is 14% owned by the State, has informed its large corporate and institutional customers that it plans to charge them a negative rate of -0.1% for deposits of €10 million or more starting in October.

Post 20 Aug 2016, 17:31
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rocketsoft



Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 167

If u start a bank giving everyone 1000.00 credits a month... it should become popular. And the credits shall be worth REAL Money! A 10T HD can hold all account information.Radio can be used to make financial transactions!(with a Better phone?)
Post 29 Jun 2017, 22:55
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


rocketsoft wrote:
If u start a bank giving everyone 1000.00 credits a month... it should become popular.

How come you don't start such a bank?

Rolling Eyes Confused
Post 30 Jun 2017, 04:03
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 899

Banks are rich in money, but money has value only due to government and society. What's more important are people who are rich in assets, not just hard cash. Because the value of assets isn't only a matter of opinion.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 10:08
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15324
Location: Bigweld Industries

There is only one true asset: Your health. All other things are only valued if everyone agrees they have value. Value is a consensus, not an intrinsic property. Ever heard the saying "One man's garbage is another man's treasure"?
Post 30 Jun 2017, 10:16
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sleepsleep



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rocketsoft wrote:
If u start a bank giving everyone 1000.00 credits a month... it should become popular. And the credits shall be worth REAL Money! A 10T HD can hold all account information.Radio can be used to make financial transactions!(with a Better phone?)


everything is possible and you just mentioned a possible scenario,


revolution wrote:
There is only one true asset: Your health. All other things are only valued if everyone agrees they have value.


health is one true asset, no doubt,
but this health depend on several inputs, food, shelter, clean water, clean oxygen, less stressful commitment, security at home, on the way to work and at work, and etc factors,

they are all connected, Idea actually, everybody is connected,


YONG wrote:
Banks are rich in money,


because they rob everybody and create monies out of thin air,
Post 30 Jun 2017, 10:55
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15324
Location: Bigweld Industries


sleepsleep wrote:

YONG wrote:
Banks are rich in money,


because they rob everybody and create monies out of thin air,

Money is not a tangible thing though. All money is created out of thin air. That is what it is. The value that everyone agrees on is what matters here. Some currencies have no value at all, some have a lot of value. Same thing, different value agreed upon. If the government manage the money badly and create too much then the value goes down (aka inflation). It doesn't have a fixed value, it is just a perceived value.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 11:01
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 899


revolution wrote:
There is only one true asset: Your health. All other things are only valued if everyone agrees they have value.

That's wrong though. Unless you believe that "the power of will" is the only thing that gives shape to anything (i.e. the entire world is created from people's minds/beliefs) and you need to find out how to "control" it. I don't.

A gun doesn't have value in defending you against burglars (in an anarchistic world) because people agree it has value. No, it has value because it can kill said burglars. It performs a useful task, giving you power.

I'm sure you can extend this to much more advanced technological assets. Like a factory or other means of production.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 11:30
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15324
Location: Bigweld Industries

A gun is not an asset if you have no burglars. You give it value by deciding that it will deter burglars. But if you give the gun to someone else, they can determine it to be valueless to them if they have nothing to steal or if there are no burglars where they live. They might even determine it has negative value if they worry that their child could use it.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 11:34
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 899

Nope. You got it wrong. I'm not talking about the value someone perceives an item to be for him. I'm talking about the intrinsic value of an asset. i.e. what it can perform. Money has no intrinsic value (well, other than the paper it is), assets do.

A gun can shoot people and other stuff. That's its intrinsic value. You may not need to shoot people, and hence it may not be useful to you, but it doesn't change the fact that it can shoot people.

And if you need to shoot people, then you definitely need a gun. You can't materialize it out of "deciding" something else (like with money, where you materialize its value). Money only has value in eyes of people, but assets have intrinsic values because of the tasks they can be used for regardless of what others think.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 11:37
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15324
Location: Bigweld Industries


Furs wrote:
Unless you believe that "the power of will" is the only thing that gives shape to anything (i.e. the entire world is created from people's minds/beliefs) and you need to find out how to "control" it. I don't.

I don't see how this is related to assets and value. Regardless of how things are formed, we still value, or not value, things based upon our particular beliefs. The amount of value applied is changeable and not fixed. One day we might value a cheese sandwich as worth $2 from the local shop, but the next day that same sandwich if not sold is thrown away.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 11:41
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15324
Location: Bigweld Industries

A gun doesn't have any intrinsic value. I already described a case where someone considers it a liability. One person says positive value, another says negative value. It is all about what they think.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 11:45
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


sleepsleep wrote:

YONG wrote:
Banks are rich in money,

because they rob everybody and create monies out of thin air,

So, you are putting words in my mouth, too!

I did not write that line; it was Furs.

Mad
Post 30 Jun 2017, 12:37
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 899


revolution wrote:
A gun doesn't have any intrinsic value. I already described a case where someone considers it a liability. One person says positive value, another says negative value. It is all about what they think.

No it's not.

1) Burglar goes into your house, you offer him money to cooperate with you instead (i.e. you tell him you got way more than that elsewhere), he refuses as he thinks money is worth nothing, so you're at the mercy of his opinion. Meaning it has absolutely no value at all.

2) Burglar goes into your house, you shoot him dead, he doesn't steal shit. His opinion of the gun's value has no weight here. Because the gun has intrinsic utility/power it can exert on stuff. The gun has value since it is independent on what anyone thinks of it.

Even if 1 billion people think a gun cannot shoot people, it will still be able to shoot people. People's minds/opinions don't mean jack shit.


Another example is, you can have all assets in the world and not be happy for having them, which is an opinion. You can change this opinion if you change your mind (i.e. a question of willpower).

But if you can only be happy by having X asset (due to what it does, see above), or let's say you're starving, then you will need the asset. Willpower alone will not help you in this case.


Last edited by Furs on 30 Jun 2017, 12:47; edited 1 time in total
Post 30 Jun 2017, 12:46
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E


revolution wrote:
A gun doesn't have any intrinsic value.

Yes, it does. In fact, it has a long list of intrinsic values: rest mass, chemical composition, electrical & heat conductivity, typical recoil force, trigger sensitivity, and so forth. All of such values can be accurately and objectively measured.

Wink
Post 30 Jun 2017, 12:46
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15324
Location: Bigweld Industries

Furs: What is the value of a gun if you have no bullets? What is the value of a gun if you have your hands tied behind your back? Intrinsic value means not based upon opinion or situation.

YONG's response is closer to the answer here, although it has nothing to do the the value as an asset/liability. Those are a different kind of value, and those are indeed intrinsic.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 12:58
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 899


revolution wrote:
Furs: What is the value of a gun if you have no bullets? What is the value of a gun if you have your hands tied behind your back? Intrinsic value means not based upon opinion or situation.

In all cases the value of the gun is the same. I already said I'm not talking about the gun's value in your personal situation, which is more correct to say how useful it is to you (with no bullets or hands tied behind your back). The intrinsic value of a gun has nothing to do with any human's personal situation. So the fact that a human has his hands tied behind his back should already be a hint that the question is wrong.

With bullets it is a similar idea. I oversimplified the example, clearly. A gun doesn't kill people to be exact, it shoots bullets. Of course without bullets the gun is still valuable, it can still shoot bullets, you just don't have any to shoot with.

But anyway, the main point was that money's value is given by people agreeing to it (implicitly or not); i.e. it has no value by itself and needs consensus for that. Intrinsic value of stuff is given regardless of anyone's opinion. Regardless of any human. You don't need anyone's agreement for the gun to function the way it does, that's it. Not just gun but anything ofc. That's what an asset is.
Post 30 Jun 2017, 13:51
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