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flat assembler > Heap > A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-04-01/a-basic-income-is-smarter-than-minimum-wages


Quote:
A Finnish government working group tasked with trying out the scheme proposed parameters for a pilot project on Wednesday: Up to 10,000 people are to start receiving 550 euros ($627) per month next year.



i want to go Finland. Very Happy
Post 04 Apr 2016, 19:19
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redsock



Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 261
Location: Australia

_________________
2 Ton Digital - https://2ton.com.au/
Post 05 Apr 2016, 00:01
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
Location: 6EQUJ5
sleepsleep is forever wanting free money. What would you do in return for the free money?
Post 05 Apr 2016, 15:06
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badc0de02



Joined: 25 Nov 2013
Posts: 210
Location: %x
stones
Post 05 Apr 2016, 18:27
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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revolution wrote:
sleepsleep is forever wanting free money. What would you do in return for the free money?



i promise i will spend it instead of hoarding them, Laughing

welcome to capitalism enslavement program and brainwash session,

always living in fear,
fear of having nothing, not enough, losing what we got, fear of changes,
fear of health issues, buy insurance, buy extended warranty, always subliminal messages to instill fear and more fear,

it is better and more normal to live like slave, work like slave, eat like slave, shit like slave, Laughing
Post 06 Apr 2016, 07:13
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
Location: 6EQUJ5
Well you can't really expect everyone else to do everything for you and never give anything back. Farmers grow your food. Drivers deliver it to your store. Builders erect your shelter. Weavers make your cloth. Tailors make your clothes. Etc. If all of those people just sat around waiting for money then what will you eat, where will you live, what will you wear, who protects you from robbers, who maintains your car, where do you get clean drinking water?
Post 06 Apr 2016, 07:23
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 567
That's how capitalism "worked". It's dying and quite fast at it due to technology advancing exponentially.

Low-skilled jobs are replaced every day by automation, and let's face it, not every human will be able to learn more easily, especially when technology enables us to be dumber. We've been pushing our limits for quite a while now. Eventually, every single job will be replaced and the only ones with money who will control everything will be those who invested into robots and own the robots. Meaning 0.1% of the population.

Even a die-hard capitalist I converse with admits that this "Free money" is absolutely needed within the next 10 to 20 years, but still better to give money than welfare services because at least now people can choose what they want to do with the money.

Within 10 to 20 years, virtually 90% of all the low skilled jobs will be replaced, and that's perhaps three quarters or more of the population. Will you just leave those people to die or what?

Estimates are that within 50 or so years, 99% of ALL jobs will be replaced, if we aren't completely dominated by AI by then. And the artists will be the last to go, since no matter how emotional robots get you can still make a unique artistic piece and gain something from it (though it will be increasingly rarer). Any other job will be gone. This is simply a way for humans to still exist by that point.


I used to think Communism only works in ideal conditions and on perfect species, not on humanity, but with advancing technology and AI it is one of the only systems I can imagine for the future. Capitalism mostly worked because of how human nature was and the fact our technology was still primitive and couldn't replace us completely. Moving forward we need to switch to a socialist system, that's for sure.
Post 06 Apr 2016, 10:30
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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- companies that unwilling to shift to certain degree of input, process, output automation will cease to exists in near future, true of false

- this automation process will result less and less human labour involvement, true or false

- less and less job opportunity for human in near future, true or false

now questions to ponder:

- why we need to involve the concept of farmers in order to have food? assume self seed, watering, inspection, monitoring, harvest work in semi-automate plants growing building.

- why delivery must involve driver? assume driveless truck work in future

- why the need to erect shelter? assume 3D printed self erect building work

- why need weavers to make clothes? assume everybody will have tesla suit, self clean clothes, buy one and use forever

- who protects you from robbers, if everybody get basic income, robbers crime will probably decrease substantially

capitalism means create and design things with the purpose to have it breaks, needs refuel, needs maintenance, needs changing parts, forever sucks

capitalism means, please get listed, share price, profit, revenue, big eat small, monopoly, cash reserve, bully, opportunist, enslavement, never equal opportunity, and more

why human couldn't design a car that never broke?
because capitalism don't allow such car to exists,

why human couldn't design a laptop that could be upgrade forever?
because capitalism don't allow such laptop to exists,
Post 06 Apr 2016, 12:37
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Trinitek



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 256

Furs wrote:
Estimates are that within 50 or so years, 99% of ALL jobs will be replaced, if we aren't completely dominated by AI by then.

And then new jobs will spawn to replace the ones lost. The market has always adapted, and it will continue to do so.
Post 06 Apr 2016, 20:29
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Tyler



Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1217
Location: NC, USA
Trinitek, nah man, you don't know what you're talking about. Just look at the unemployment caused by agricultural technology! 98% of us used to be farmers and now we're all jobless!

Oh wait, that's bullshit. And this pseudo-futurist basic income argument is also bullshit, and very, very tired bullshit at that.
Post 06 Apr 2016, 20:51
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
Location: 6EQUJ5

Tyler wrote:
98% of us used to be farmers and now we're all jobless!

Yes indeed, we all have no jobs. The world has not moved on at all. Computers and cars do not exist. All we have are the 2% farmers and everyone else begging for their food. Such a sad place this world has become.

Tyler wrote:
Oh wait, that's bullshit. And this pseudo-futurist basic income argument is also bullshit, and very, very tired bullshit at that.

Ah, some sense at last. Things do change, and the world does actually move on. We can free ourselves from the burden of having to work all day in the field just to feed ourselves and instead can work all day just to get more advertising of useless crap that everyone has to buy to keep the economy moving. Hehe, now I wonder if after all we would be better off just growing our own food and bartering everything with no money needed.
Post 07 Apr 2016, 05:03
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 7652
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
capitalism means create and design things with the purpose to have it breaks, needs refuel, needs maintenance, needs changing parts, forever sucks

Reminds me of the following:

Centennial Light
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light

Planned obsolescence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

Wink
Post 07 Apr 2016, 08:10
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 567

Trinitek wrote:
And then new jobs will spawn to replace the ones lost. The market has always adapted, and it will continue to do so.

You are wrong. Your prediction is emotional and based on feelings or philosophy, mine is a simple extrapolation of current trends.

I don't think you understand the fact that it takes less and less time between jobs being replaced. This is because humans learn at the same pace as before (our biological evolution is incredibly slow compared to technology, we can just as well say it stands still at this point). Technology advances at an exponential rate.

If it took 100 years for farmers to get replaced in the 20th century (or have most of their jobs automated with tools), it only took 10 years for them to be completely replaced by drones. It will take 5 more years for the next job in line to be replaced. And so on. Humans will be phased out because they learn much slower than robots will replace them, and are obviously much less economical.

You guys can laugh at this, but I'm telling you right now where that free money policy comes from. You might live in denial, but it is a real future problem based on real extrapolated data. Finland is doing it as an experiment but the US is thinking about it as well (I have a friend I converse with from there, I'm in Europe so I don't know first hand, and like I said this friend is a die-hard capitalist so he wouldn't be making this stuff up I guess). I don't know what else to tell you other than "wait 20 years and see it for yourself" honestly.


And let's go the philosophical route or "new jobs always get created" bullshit which is more like a religion than science. Farmers did manual labor back in the day with primitive tools. This got improved, less manual labor, more brain needed as technology improved. So jobs switched from manual labor to mass production in the industrial era. Eventually we'll be at a point where only brain-related (or office jobs) will be available. It's a shift.

So far so good. What happens when even our brainpower gets exceeded by AI? I'm talking about jobs here, no need for AI having morals and other crap, I'm just talking of AI as a tool. Keep in mind Google estimate AI with the power of the human brain as early as 2023. By 2025, they will be twice as smart as humans. By 2027, 4 times smarter, and by 2029, 8 times smarter.

That's less than 20 years from now.

In this case, you are right on a philosophical level: market will adapt and change. Assuming robots don't gain any self-conscience and are merely tools for jobs, then the only guys with money will be those controlling and owning the robots and AI. In this case the market did adapt, if we still use capitalism by then -- it rendered humans completely obsolete for any job.


EDIT: To add to that, of course we might get neural augments to compete with AI by that point. But you can't seriously expect such a thing or if it will exist at all, if you are a leader of a country or a member of the parliament. You need policies that are realistic, not science fiction. That much is obvious.

Oh and I'm not even including the possibility that AI will make its own progress even faster. The data I got was from purely a human-viewpoint as if humans keep designing new technology based on Moore's Law. But an AI that exceeds humanity in design and brain power will design itself even faster.

It is likely by 2030 it might as well be 16 times smarter instead of 8.
Post 07 Apr 2016, 10:06
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: 6EQUJ5
Furs: You might be interested to read about the "technological singularity".
Post 07 Apr 2016, 10:25
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 567
Yes, I know about the singularity, but honestly I'm not as optimistic about it as Kurzweil is. In my context I'm simply talking about AI as tools, not sentient AI.

For me sentience is still yet to be proven it works with our current knowledge of the brain. I'm not saying sentience is necessarily "supernatural" (by supernatural of course I mean "phenomena we don't understand or know of yet", hence the quotes around it), but it definitely is more science fiction than fact.

But, AI that is made specifically for one purpose or job will be far better at it than a human, even if their real brainpower is much less than that of a human.

For example, self-driving cars already exist and are "smarter" than humans, with much less accidents and much more reliable. Even now. And clearly their processing power is far lower, but since they are designed for just one purpose as a tool, they are able to do it already with ease.

But of course, think about the supercomputers used in businesses for research, the computing power would be immense and if they are tailored for a specific task, all human researchers will be eventually replaced... I mean IBM is heavily investing in AI for researching drugs and other in the biotech industry.

Once again I'm not denying that sentient AI will one day take over, but it's not something I personally vouch for. I'm more realist hah Smile

Here are some articles I found on google, if someone isn't aware of latest developments:

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/114614/20151209/googles-d-wave-2x-quantum-computer-100-million-times-faster-than-regular-computer-chip.htm
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11403924


Of course I'm not talking about AI the size of a human and doing human tasks and emotions. I'm talking about supercomputers stealing the jobs of an entire company staff (of researchers for instance), which will happen sooner than you think.
Post 07 Apr 2016, 10:48
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Trinitek



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 256

Furs wrote:
You are wrong. Your prediction is emotional and based on feelings or philosophy, mine is a simple extrapolation of current trends.

No, my prediction is based on current trends. Yours is based on an overactive imagination. Wink
Post 07 Apr 2016, 18:00
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
Location: Off the scale in the third direction
Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

sleepsleep wrote:
i want to go Finland. Very Happy



If the government botches this up like they've botched up almost everything they've done so far and then even tries to apply this on a wider scale I'll be moving out of Finland. The difficulty I have is trying to figure out which country I'd want to move to.

I personally think (not thinking about this too deeply at the moment though) that people who have no job should be doing job searching as a full-time job or something else similarly useful to be entitled to anything unless they've been diagnosed with something which justifies them working less or practically not at all. I guess I'm just really against the idea of anyone getting a free ride when they could be at least trying to do something useful for themselves and others.
Post 07 Apr 2016, 20:02
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
Location: Off the scale in the third direction

Furs wrote:
You are wrong. Your prediction is emotional and based on feelings or philosophy, mine is a simple extrapolation of current trends.

I don't think you understand the fact that it takes less and less time between jobs being replaced. This is because humans learn at the same pace as before (our biological evolution is incredibly slow compared to technology, we can just as well say it stands still at this point). Technology advances at an exponential rate.



Just rambling on the fly here so please don't judge too harshly.

Let's look at history of things. First the universe experimented with macrosopic scale physical systems. Then it moved on to inorganic chemistry. After that came organic machines called life which became sentient and developed language for processing, writing for storage and started developing culture. After a while the culture goes digital and possibly at some point sentient digital beings will pop out into being and we can assume that they might be able evolve with unfathomable speed. I see the kind of orders of magnitude speedups which you were talking about in development speed with each transition throughout this process. I just wanted to point out that this rate at which things advance can also be seen from a wider historical perspective. Then again you kind of implied all of this in what you said.

So which way will it go? Will sentient machines replace humans as the dominant form of life on this piece of rock or will the humans who can afford it become cyborgs like the borg and distance themselves from the inferior non-enhanced ones? Or will we get new immortal ex-human cyborg gods or guardians from the richest people who would act as "benevolent" dictators for the rest?
Post 07 Apr 2016, 20:52
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sleepsleep



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nyrtzi wrote:

If the government botches this up like they've botched up almost everything they've done so far and then even tries to apply this on a wider scale I'll be moving out of Finland.


Finland would become a great place to live, a breakthrough in current civilization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland

Quote:

Official Language : Finnish (89.33%)

Finland's population is 5.5 million (2014), staying roughly on the same level over the past two decades.

Finland was a relative latecomer to industrialisation, remaining a largely agrarian country until the 1950s. It rapidly developed an advanced economy while building an extensive Nordic-style welfare state, resulting in widespread prosperity and one of the highest per capita incomes in the world.[14] However, since 2012 Finnish GDP growth has been negative, with a preceding nadir of -8% in 2009.

Linus Torvalds, the Finnish software engineer best known for creating the popular open-source kernel Linux.



i could see a better environment for human interaction,
Post 08 Apr 2016, 06:44
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nyrtzi



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 179
Location: Off the scale in the third direction

sleepsleep wrote:

Finland would become a great place to live, a breakthrough in current civilization.



It might. It might not. Time will tell. And if and only if such a thing is affordable which is by no means guaranteed looking at the current situation.
Post 08 Apr 2016, 09:40
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