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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Furs wrote:
The fact that the laws of physics are already so "ordered" is proof enough to me that this was indeed designed.

You should have read the link in my post before saying so. The Anthropic Principle sensibly explains why our (observable) universe is so "ordered" -- intelligent life-forms could not have come into existence otherwise.

Wink
Post 10 May 2017, 12:20
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 814
No, I'm well aware of the Anthropic Principle. But the laws of physics are not able to be changed or randomized from a larger pool (at least as far as we're aware).

The Anthropic Principle works in theory with things out there that are vast, such as galaxies, and so on (i.e. those being "perfect conditions" for us, it just happens we're in one to observe it). But the laws of physics are only ONE and always the same. They're not by "chance" good enough to sustain us, because we are not aware there's any other laws of physics at all.

...yeah you can come and say, there are probably an infinite universes out there each with different laws of physics, just so Anthropic Principle works for laws of physics too. But then, how is that any different than saying there's a God who made it all and we're in a simulation? (and he's nothing "special" in his own world, much like a programmer here isn't anything special)

Both are speculations with zero facts (because, well, facts are impossible in this respect, so that's OK, the point is that the Anthropic Principle isn't somehow more "valid" when we speak of such things "outside" this Universe and its laws of physics)

I personally don't even care that the laws of physics enable life to exist. What's important is that they are so ordered and follow relatively simple mathematical formulas (not something insanely complex / random just for the heck of it). This is proof to me (in my belief) that there is a creator, whoever he may be, who made the laws of physics the way they are. It's not humans/life that is special, it's the laws of physics.

Of course, I'd love to be able to meet him (even "virtually") but I'm afraid that's not in my power unless he decides to log into his Universe and speak with a NPC like myself Wink (obviously he'd use an "avatar" in the Universe, just like we use avatars/characters to interact with NPCs/AIs in our own simulations; we don't interact with them in the flesh)
Post 11 May 2017, 14:01
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Furs wrote:
But the laws of physics are only ONE and always the same.

How do you know? Rolling Eyes

Each big bang could have created a vastly-different universe -- with different fundamental constants and different physical laws.

Wink
Post 12 May 2017, 01:48
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 814
You're missing the point. There's only one laws of physics we can know of (yet?). Anything else is meta-physics which is no different than my view (i.e. unprovable).

You say each big bang, but how do you know there's multiple big bangs? It's not provable same as my theory, both are meta-physics Wink (thus the Anthropic Principle, when applied to the laws of physics, is also meta-physics)
Post 12 May 2017, 11:13
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Furs wrote:
There's only one laws of physics we can know of (yet?).

We assume that there has been only one set of physical laws applicable to the entire universe since big bang. Such an assumption could be wrong.


Furs wrote:
You say each big bang, but how do you know there's multiple big bangs?

Based on probabilistic arguments. One random event could give rise a life-nurturing set of fundamental constants and physical laws? Are you kidding me?


Wink
Post 12 May 2017, 12:13
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 814

YONG wrote:
We assume that there has been only one set of physical laws applicable to the entire universe since big bang. Such an assumption could be wrong.

Yeah, same as the assumption that there is no creator and this is just the result of chance. There is no difference. (well, same applies to the assumption that there *is* a creator, and I don't mean any religious one necessarily, obviously)


YONG wrote:
Based on probabilistic arguments. One random event could give rise a life-nurturing set of fundamental constants and physical laws? Are you kidding me?

Indeed, I don't find it plausible at all.

That's why my assumption is that the world was carefully created by a programmer God, so it involves no random chance at all (for the laws of physics), while yours is that it's just one out of many. Of course such God could have created many parallel simulations, each with different laws of physics, so it's not like he made humans on purpose (or did he?). I don't believe the latter.

My point is that both of these are not provable and are just assumptions, at least as long as we're constrained within this Universe (if we find a way to see other Universes or to "escape" this Universe or whatever, ofc it can change).

The reason I find a creator much more plausible is because of 3 things:

1) The laws of physics are still very simplistic (we can model them with a few equations! for something on the scale of this Universe, that's insane), and not extremely complex/chaotic, plus they are quantized. It's not about life, because life can likely exist in a Universe with much more complex laws of physics too. Yet here we are in one with simple mathematical laws?

2) We can already create mini worlds ourselves, in the future we'll even be able to give "life" to them (AI, etc). If we can do that, then what are the chances that we're the "first" ones to do so? That we have no creator, yet we can be creators ourselves. Highly unlikely. Of course, our worlds do NOT follow the laws of physics, but they often try to "emulate" them macroscopically. Thus I conclude that the outside Universe is much more complex than this one, if we are indeed created.

3) If there are an infinite number of Big Bangs in an infinite number of Universes and we just happen to be in one that supports life, what/who created those Universes? Are those also the result of prior Universes with random laws too? In my case, the answer to 3 is "I don't know, but it's likely the creator was himself created by another programmer" recursively. I don't know the root programmer of all this obviously, but it is more plausible to me.
Post 12 May 2017, 13:44
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6917
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699
welcome to define truth, define real, define i,
Post 12 May 2017, 18:10
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

Furs wrote:
1) The laws of physics are still very simplistic (we can model them with a few equations! for something on the scale of this Universe, that's insane), and not extremely complex/chaotic, plus they are quantized. It's not about life, because life can likely exist in a Universe with much more complex laws of physics too. Yet here we are in one with simple mathematical laws?

Very simplistic? Really?

Then, how come physicists have not yet come up with a theory of everything? How come we still need two vastly-different theories -- quantum mechanics for the microscopic realm & general relativity for the macroscopic world -- to describe the universe?


Furs wrote:
2) We can already create mini worlds ourselves, in the future we'll even be able to give "life" to them (AI, etc). If we can do that, then what are the chances that we're the "first" ones to do so? That we have no creator, yet we can be creators ourselves. Highly unlikely. Of course, our worlds do NOT follow the laws of physics, but they often try to "emulate" them macroscopically. Thus I conclude that the outside Universe is much more complex than this one, if we are indeed created.

Yeah, we can create very simple "mini" worlds. But if you need intricate details like quantum fluctuations, the complexity of the "mini" worlds will match that of the real world.

Even if we do live in a simulated world created by some "higher" super-intelligent beings, it does not necessarily imply that there is an ultimate creator.


Furs wrote:
3) If there are an infinite number of Big Bangs in an infinite number of Universes and we just happen to be in one that supports life, what/who created those Universes? Are those also the result of prior Universes with random laws too? In my case, the answer to 3 is "I don't know, but it's likely the creator was himself created by another programmer" recursively. I don't know the root programmer of all this obviously, but it is more plausible to me.

The most likely explanation is that big bangs are nothing but gigantic/scale-up versions of quantum fluctuations in emptiness. The fruits of such totally-random processes may or may not sustain the creation of life. We just happen to be in one of the many life-nurturing universes.

Again, there is no need to have an ultimate creator.


Wink
Post 13 May 2017, 02:22
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
define i

"i" is the lower-case representation of the 9th letter in the alphabet of the English language. Good enough?

Edited to make the sentence specific enough for the taste of revolution.

Wink


Last edited by YONG on 13 May 2017, 05:38; edited 1 time in total
Post 13 May 2017, 02:25
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15153
Location: GW170817

YONG wrote:
"i" is the 9th letter in the lower-case alphabet. Good enough?

No. There are many alphabets used by humans. You failed to specify which alphabet.

BTW: I didn't know there was such a thing a "lower-case alphabet". I thought the upper/lower case thing was just a representation difference, not a separate alphabet. Confused
Post 13 May 2017, 03:05
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6917
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699
Cyberattack Hits Nearly 100 Countries and Thousands of Computers
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/national-health-service-cyberattack-hits-english-hospitals-hackers-demand-bitcoin-n758516

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/nhs-cyber-attack-everything-need-know-biggest-ransomware-offensive/

best way to take out all the debt records,


Quote:
A cyber gang - called Shadow Brokers - is being blamed for the hack. The mysterious organisation said in April it had stolen a ‘cyber weapon’ from the National Security Agency (NSA), America’s powerful military intelligence unit.

The hacking tool, called ‘Eternal Blue’, gives unprecedented access to all computers using Microsoft Windows, the world’s most popular computer operating system. It had been developed by the NSA to gain access to computers used by terrorists and enemy states.



reset all banking accounts and transactions, Laughing surely exists some parties who are happy if all records gone, imagine how you could store all those trillions or zillions transactions without using computer, hard drive in digital format?

maybe we shouldn't depend so much on digital format, money should probably exists in liquid, you buy a house using one litter of whatever hard to find liquid, new wallet that stored liquid, verifies and able to release them precisely,

not sure what is the most expensive liquid on earth? Embarassed
https://beyondtype1.org/the-10-most-expensive-liquids-in-the-world/

Quote:
Black Printer Ink $2,700 per gallon. ...
Mercury $3,400 per gallon. ...
Insulin $9,400* per gallon. ...
Chanel No. 5 $26,000 per gallon. ...
Horseshoe Crab Blood $60,000 per gallon. ...
Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) $123,000 per gallon. ...
King Cobra Venom $153,000 per gallon. ...
Scorpion Venom $39,000,000 per gallon.


Scorpion venom seems to be the most expensive!

human blood is not cheap, Human Blood: $1,500 per gallon

3. Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) $123,000 per gallon
Very widely used in the 1960s as a hallucinogenic drug, LSD is made from the crystalline compound, Lysergic acid, prepared from natural ergot alkaloids. Just one gallon of LSD would provide enough hallucinogens for approximately 55,000 people.

amazing!

Martial Law if Global Cyber Attack Hits Banks next week . . . .
https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/3863


Last edited by sleepsleep on 13 May 2017, 03:58; edited 1 time in total
Post 13 May 2017, 03:48
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

revolution wrote:
There are many alphabets used by humans. You failed to specify which alphabet.

I thought that the default language was English. Seems that I was wrong. I will be specific next time. Thanks for pointing out my omission.

I was referring to the alphabet of the English language.


revolution wrote:
BTW: I didn't know there was such a thing a "lower-case alphabet". I thought the upper/lower case thing was just a representation difference, not a separate alphabet. Confused

Yes, they are separate, literally. Refer to:

Why Are There Uppercase and Lowercase Letters?
http://wonderopolis.org/wonder/why-are-there-uppercase-and-lowercase-letters

Wink
Post 13 May 2017, 03:58
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
reset all banking accounts and transactions, Laughing

Fortunately, most banks do listen to the advice given by revolution: backup your data regularly.

I am glad that I no longer use M$ Windows as my workhorse OS.

Wink
Post 13 May 2017, 04:04
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15153
Location: GW170817

YONG wrote:

revolution wrote:
BTW: I didn't know there was such a thing a "lower-case alphabet". I thought the upper/lower case thing was just a representation difference, not a separate alphabet. Confused

Yes, they are separate, literally. Refer to:

Why Are There Uppercase and Lowercase Letters?
http://wonderopolis.org/wonder/why-are-there-uppercase-and-lowercase-letters

Letters are part of an alphabet. Upper/lower case letter A/a is just one letter that we represent differently, but still only one letter in the same alphabet. We can also use a different glyph (font) to represent the A differently, but it it still the same letter, not part of a different alphabet.
Post 13 May 2017, 04:25
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

revolution wrote:
Upper/lower case letter A/a is just one letter that we represent differently.

No, "A" and "a" are two different letters, both physically and "formatically" speaking.

In the good old days, we needed two metallic pieces of "A" and "a" to print the letters; in the modern era, the letters "A" & "a" are stored in computers using two different internal representations. Check the ASCII table yourself if you don't believe me.

Wink
Post 13 May 2017, 04:39
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6917
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699
define letter, define symbol, define their difference against alphabet,
Post 13 May 2017, 16:34
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6917
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699
https://intel.malwaretech.com/botnet/wcrypt
https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/3863

they will hit bank and stock exchange, like in tv series, mr.robot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Robot_%28TV_series%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mr._Robot_episodes


Quote:
The fsociety hack succeeded, throwing the world into chaos and gathering cheering crowds throughout the city. fsociety encrypt their data and cover their tracks. E Corp is readying an emergency TV interview. The E Corp EVP of Technology commits suicide on TV after stating that the situation is hopeless.

Post 13 May 2017, 16:48
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
define letter

"a written, typed, or printed communication, sent in an envelope by post or messenger"

Good enough?

Wink
Post 14 May 2017, 01:05
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YONG



Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 8000
Location: 22° 15' N | 114° 10' E

sleepsleep wrote:
they will hit bank and stock exchange,

They might.

But banks and stock exchanges will not be affected as they do take revolution's advice seriously:

Always back up your data regularly.

Wink
Post 14 May 2017, 01:09
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6917
Location: ˛                              ⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣⁣ Posts: 6699

YONG wrote:
But banks and stock exchanges will not be affected as they do take revolution's advice seriously:

Always back up your data regularly.


restoring backup is very tedious process, especially inside environment that constantly active, banking transactions, stock exchanges, etc 24x7 non-stop businesses,

and with intel management engine backdoor, those viruses / programs might somehow still living there even after restore, emerging ai brain could even allow them to conspire strategies to take down hosts systems,
Post 14 May 2017, 08:26
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