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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1203
Your idea is not gonna work. If someone gets coins just for being online then it is very very easy to cheat and control the system, just get enough nodes online, which is not a very difficult task (compared to mining).

This is why a similar system to yours is "proof of stake", which is similar except you need to stake coins. The more you stake, the more you earn for being online, but you need an initial amount of crypto coins to stake. It's like a bet. It needs to be staked so that if you cheat, you lose them to the algorithm. In other words, you get punished. It also gives you incentive to use them for staking (and thus increases demand to hold the coins, not just "sell" them), because the more you stake, the more you earn.

Not to mention, even if humans were trustworthy by nature, it would be stupid from an economical standpoint.

I know you don't really know how economy works, but your system is full of inflation. Which means the more nodes there are online (better for the network), the worse off everyone else is who owns those coins. The value of the coins would plummet and would be completely controlled by how many people decide to run nodes.

Nobody would want to use this currency, because it has no value (there's too much of it created for people who run nodes). This means that, even people who get it "for free" by running nodes, would find it worthless. So they'll also stop running nodes. In the end, it's not an incentive... It's like offering to pay someone in Venezuela's native currency -- nobody wants it.

As for "proof of stake", the reason it works in theory is also a way for the coin to get value. Yes, inflation is still a problem, but it's controlled because people need to stake coins, which increases demand for the coin. Coins that you stake are coins that you cannot use. It's like putting money in your bank to earn interest. This increases value for the coin, but yes, only the "big guys" owning a lot of coins with staking are the ones who'll earn much from proof of stake.

Bitcoin is not only finite (and thus has "value" by rarity), but it has a difficulty that gets adjusted by how many miners are there. Basically like I said when you do the hash, you need to find a hash (not just exactly 1) that compares to a value, it must be higher. The higher that value is, the more difficult it is. Bitcoin is designed so the difficulty (the value) automatically rises if the block is found too quickly. Obviously, finding one hash that is higher than, say, 100 is much easier than finding a hash that is higher than 65536 -- imagine if you found a hash whose value is 1337; this hash is invalid if the difficulty is 65536, but it's completely valid if it's 100, since 1337 > 100.

Difficulty is adjusted in the algorithm automatically depending how fast a block is found -- so, if you have too many miners, the system will auto-balance itself by increasing difficulty, so as to not deplete the Bitcoin mining too fast. So getting more processing power only gives you more percent resource share of the entire pool, not "more Bitcoin".

Remember our prior discussions about finite resources and too many people on the planet? That is valid here.

Since resources, like Bitcoin, must be finite for them to have value, then it means if you decide to get a "more powerful mining rig" to mine more Bitcoin, everyone else who previously mined suffers. You simply increase your share % from the mined pool, which automatically means everyone else loses their % share, because the total must be 100%. 100% of the resources, in this case, the mined Bitcoin.


At the end of the day, you can't make a system that rewards everyone equally, because then the system's value is worthless. Sorry that it's the harsh truth. You need something inaccessible to "the common guy", either staking a large amount of coins, or mining (which is very expensive), or whatever.

It's never going to work otherwise. A lot of people tried for a decade ever since Bitcoin was designed. They all flopped. Nobody can go against economics and facts, because most people don't think logically, they use emotions when they think about economics.
Post 22 May 2018, 13:58
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1203
Related: https://www.ccn.com/japanese-cryptocurrency-monacoin-hit-by-selfish-mining-attack/

Think if your system can prevent this kind of things. Humans play dirty.
Post 22 May 2018, 14:50
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 7399
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remember the idea bout using flour as currency,

we could give everyone who is online equal 1K of our forever block currency, but they must be used within certain period. (solve the inflation part)

extension of expiry would cause eg 1k to become 1 byte if to extend to 1 year etc,

first, this service is not intended to become some sort of currency, it first intention is to solve the issue, hosting after you are no longer around on earth to pay the hosting fee,

people who got the keys could sell them to people who want to use such service, maybe it will evolve to 1KB of forever block equal to USD 0.5 or USD 1 or whatever price, idk,

actually i just thought of an idea,
if let say "mine / got this key" in 1 day, then the expiry date would be maybe 1 + 1 days, if you got it in 1 week, then it would be 1 week + 1 week, so the logic for expiry is solved.

to get longer expiry keys, you must stay online longer to serve content, win win situation to both parties,

longer expiry key is more valuable than shorter expiry key (assume the function of key are to add and delete data)

then here another idea, introduction of 1KB key, 1MB key, 10MB key, 100MB key, 300MB key, etc

then another issue, sound stupid, since we want to do the forever thing, Laughing but how to prevent the size of database grown into unrealistic number.

let say we start with 1TB and increment of 10% each month, i dont think this is doable, it just too large for people to feel comfortable,
Quote:
As of May 2015, the current version of the English Wikipedia article / template / redirect text was about 51 GB uncompressed in XML format. The size of the article text in the English Wikipedia, measured in gigabytes (compressed), grew steadily from 1 GB in 2006 to 9 GB in 2013 to 11.5 GB in 2015 as shown in the chart.


or maybe we set it to be 1TB in final, once 1TB reach, add must come with delete first, got to deal with people who forget their delete password, etc,




=
computing of hashes to solve what problem?
- it boosts gpu processing power, sales, etc
- new kind of crypto market, money transfer,
- and perhaps more than what i know,
Post 22 May 2018, 14:56
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 15912
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sleepsleep wrote:
let say we start with 1TB and increment of 10% each month, i dont think this is doable, it just too large for people to feel comfortable,
Hehe, it is more than just not being comfortable ....

1TB + 10%^12 = 3.13TB after one year (uncomfortable).
1TB + 10%^24 = 9.84TB after two years (difficult).
1TB + 10%^1200 = 4.69×10^49TB after one hundred years (impossible (probably)).

... it is not possible for any longer length of time.

This is why loan sharks make so much money. From desperate borrowers that don't understand how compound interest works.
Post 22 May 2018, 15:10
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1203
sleepsleep wrote:
remember the idea bout using flour as currency,

we could give everyone who is online equal 1K of our forever block currency, but they must be used within certain period. (solve the inflation part)
No it doesn't solve anything? You need to drop this idea of giving people free stuff just for existing, because it is abuseable. Yes, you can design a system that works right now with the given (online) population, but it will not work if population is 3 times more or whatever other context. This means it's flawed.

What about bots? You know, people tend to cheat when creating accounts. Heck Google kind of fights this every single day, but they don't offer any guarantee about their cloud services (e.g. Google Drive) staying there permanently for free people who don't pay.

Most of the "free" services are based on statistics. They see that, on average, they get X load on their servers or whatever, and Y amount of people pay for it, so it works out as free advertising. But if suddenly everyone (literally in the entire world) started to create 10 Google accounts to store free data, and then a massive amount of downloads from them, I guarantee you that Google would pull the plug on Google Drive.

sleepsleep wrote:
people who got the keys could sell them to people who want to use such service, maybe it will evolve to 1KB of forever block equal to USD 0.5 or USD 1 or whatever price, idk,
The problem is not the storage itself, especially if it uses long-lasting medium (like M-DISC). The problem is uploading it to anyone who asks for it.

sleepsleep wrote:
actually i just thought of an idea,
if let say "mine / got this key" in 1 day, then the expiry date would be maybe 1 + 1 days, if you got it in 1 week, then it would be 1 week + 1 week, so the logic for expiry is solved.

to get longer expiry keys, you must stay online longer to serve content, win win situation to both parties,

longer expiry key is more valuable than shorter expiry key (assume the function of key are to add and delete data)

then here another idea, introduction of 1KB key, 1MB key, 10MB key, 100MB key, 300MB key, etc
Actually, this sounds like an interesting idea Wink

The only problem is that you didn't solve the "trust" part (i.e. it needs some sort of proof of effort). But it's a cool idea, if you can somehow solve that (maybe one of the crypto coins already has something similar, idk).


Summarized as: what part of the algorithm tracks how much you've been serving the page online to know how to reward you?

Clearly it has to be something that a complete stranger must agree with -- a hard mathematical fact or otherwise uncheatable. I mean it must be something that someone is unable to modify in the software.

Otherwise, people could easily just say "I've been serving this for 10 years, give me my large amount of reward" by just editing the source code of the software, lol. For example, they can't do that with Bitcoin, because other users would not agree with the hash. That's why it's called "Proof of Work", because you proved you solved the hash, so you proved you did "work" (computing power) to others.

For your idea, how is the proof going to look like?
Post 22 May 2018, 19:10
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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1TB probably should be final size?

Google drive gives 15GB for each account, is actually very generous of them to give so much,

We probably could do it this way, just an idea,

The "mining" operation would be like the panopticon, everybody watch for everybody,

let say we index all files from 0 to X number, each index got their own hash, we could play around here, eg, to ensure this miner got the database, we might want the content of index 666, reversed, split to half, merge index 666 and 777 then give us the hash.

the mining activity would be, sending out this kinda random hash request to other miners.

let say each question came with 1 coin, 1 question to 11 miners, majority win, if all correct, 1/11 to everybody, each wrong answer will have to pay 1 coin to questioner.
when answer is correct, answerer get the coin, if wrong the questioner get the coin,

hash index 888 sha256 with question timestamp plus extra 5 minutes,

the working part of this is, we somehow ensure the integrity of the database,

the protocol of asking question and serving the files should be exact same, so nobody could differentiate that it is a question that give you coin, or it just a serving to a requested files.

actually i just thought of another cool one, panopticon,
the answerer will then request another miner to serve that file to etc address, if that miner reject, it needs to pay the requester, Laughing

so, nobody could reject when there is incoming request to serve file,

once client got the files, it inform it got the files, the requester then pay some coin to the server,

we could guaranteed the speed of the database by question an index that must return in next 5 seconds etc,

or it could be, whoever serve fastest would get the coin,

eg, we are in a jail, 100 human, each wait the random number for turn to ask question, question announced, but nobody can answer yet, because the timestamp on question requires the hash of next 5 seconds or etc ideas.

imo, having the best gpu and internet speed should be no advantage of getting more coin, everybody must have equal chance to get coin in medium or common set up,

eg. normal car could go 80km/h, so use this as standard,
Post 23 May 2018, 03:59
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1203
Problems:
sleepsleep wrote:
if that miner reject, it needs to pay the requester, Laughing
sleepsleep wrote:
once client got the files, it inform it got the files, the requester then pay some coin to the server,
So, what forces the miner or client to pay?

You realize the software is open source and easily modified client-side, so once he gets the data he wants, it's too late already, unless you devise some protocol in which 1) data is encrypted 2) decryption key is received atomically when he pays the coin.

The latter must be done in the algorithm. It can't be a "if I get X, then I give Y", because that requires trust. Even with the encryption, if the node sending the encrypted data receives the coins after, what makes you think it is obligated to give him the decryption key?

The only way is for you to devise a method in which the ACT of giving the coin itself unlocks the key, and can't be done otherwise. This act must be done purely in the algorithm and unbreakable by any change in software. A process that is irreversible (like a hash, but doesn't work here, what will you even hash tho?)


On a related note: This is why stakes lock your funds. That's why proper bets are based on stakes, and why nobody trusts you to pay the money IF you lose, because you can always just run away.

But if the funds are locked in a third party's trust, then even if you lose, you can't cheat your way by not giving the money. You already lost it. Obviously, a 3rd party is undesirable. Algorithms that "lock" your coins must be used, and only if you win, they get unlocked -- by mathematical properties. If you don't like your coins to be locked, then you can always just not stake them. It's not like you're forced to.
Post 23 May 2018, 14:23
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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there is one feature that i mentioned before, which i think is very unique and powerful feature to store secret,

eg. sha256 : 568A6AC33283D6AF58A38E7AF483A4CBC6D085C9F3F15A993629A919A5CACFA2

nobody will ever know what string hashed into that if i never disclose it,

i think we could use such idea as payment method, it still needs ideas on implementation, but i think it is quite secure, each hash is a coin, if you know the string, you could claim the coin, simple,

Quote:
the original string for this hash is : let me guess,


the part of how to pay would be like this, (i imagine)

1. client browser (for reading / browsing forever block)
2. node worker ( to serve database content )
3. digital wallet ( to store crypto ) let say this wallet is like other crypto except, it doesnt need mining and coin will be sent from node worker to wallet.

PC 1 (cilent who want to access forever block)
- sent site id, page id, (indexes about sites are stored inside browser)
- DHT, find some node workers,
- send to first worker what we want
- node replies with a sha256 if it ready to serves, otherwise, return a find other node, (this sha256 is not coin yet)
- at this moment, only the node worker know what hash into that sha256
- browser post the received sha256 into forever block after index retrieved,
- the sha256 format probably be like : worker node unique id, array list, wallet id, unique string, timestamp
- worker node send request to claim coin from forever block,
Post 23 May 2018, 16:51
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1203
"send to first worker what we want" is usually the hash, that's exactly how torrents work? So clearly, the client has to know the hash of the data he requests, or at least some pointers to the data.

I don't understand how you expect the "browser post the received sha256 into forever block" to work whatsoever. What gives the browser the authority to put something in the "forever block"? What is the "forever block"? The blockchain?

What makes people who keep the forever block accept a random post from the browser? You realize anyone can code a botnet to post gigabytes of data to the "forever block" right? And any node can refuse any "post" from any browser in your case, right? Why would they not refuse it, do they have something to gain from posting it from a random browser?

The browser doesn't keep the node up so it needs to give something to those who do so if it wants his shit posted on there! Aka bitcoin fees! If you want your transaction posted on the blockchain (aka in the "forever block), then you need to make the nodes who run the blockchain to accept it somehow, for example, by giving them fees. Then they will post your transaction.


Of course, if the coin that is claimed by the worker node at the end is part of the block (i.e. part of the transaction), then yes, that's exactly how transactions on the blockchain work. I'm not sure why you think inventing anything new is necessary when it already exists in the form of fees. I thought you wanted a blockchain with zero fees?

Basically your "browser" just signs the transaction with your private key, the nodes can easily verify (public key cryptography) that it's a valid transaction, but can't forge it in your name, and they usually process the transactions with highest fees first. Their reward is the fee you give them in the transaction -- signed by you, so it can't be "forged". The thing is that the fee has to be part of the blockchain. It has to be accepted by every other node, so it has to be a valid part of the blockchain.

But more or less, that's how current blockchains work. Basically it's like you sending two transactions: one to your intended target, and one to the node that processes your transaction (fees). Without the latter, you won't get your TX through.
Post 24 May 2018, 14:24
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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is there a torrent client that reward machine who stay online and made download possible?

a torrent coin,

let assume forever block is a place for people to post hashes, those hashes could only become coin when there is a valid claimed, eg. you know the string that generate those hashes, then you get the coin,

i just type straight out from my mind, please forgive me about details,

1. why people want to stay online and server those files?
they must be rewarded, assume our minimum bandwidth is 1MB/second, anything slower than this will earn less, anything faster than this will earn no extra, 1MB/second is standard

2. how would we know there is a valid request and valid respond?
you tell me, Laughing

3. we want to propagate the database content, but this content is not static and will have add / delete from time to time, thats why the chain doesnt work here, (we could use the blockchain for our coin journal)

4. let assume all index is product by each own, and let assume people could choose what index they want to serve, with % showing how many node actually having this index, (like torrent)

5. we need a proof of request, fulfillment of that request, then we give coin to node that serve the request.

6. as you said, people is greedy, they will become the requester and server,
an idea here, it means, the browser got no choice but to become a server too, whenever a request of index 888 is made, it checks for local database, if no, it gets from another node,

7. greedy human will launch more browserver
but how about the browserver must have a cache of database > 90% and online 24 hours before it could gets coin?

8. another idea would be, forget about the sha256, as long as you online 24 hours, and have 90% , you will get coin every hour, how about that? more simple,

9. so this coin is what enable them to add/delete stuff into forever browserver, Laughing they could sell for monies and they could create a USD/forever,

10. i think i just create a private internet, Laughing
Post 24 May 2018, 15:56
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html
a great story or fact? Smile

Image

sometime, things are plain in sight, but our mind just couldnt see it,

once you see it, you could never unseen it,

maybe we should watch the sky and mountain more,
Post 24 May 2018, 17:41
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sleepsleep



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i just thought a cool idea,
why not the reward of coin are based on stock market index, or currency exchange rate?

each of the job done is entitled a ticket where the machine who received it could bet on the result of tomorrow currency pair rate hourly,

this obviously makes thing very hard to get sabotaged,

assume we will give 1000 each hour,
user could bet or direct machine to bet odd or even,
the lose bet are what we recovered to prevent inflation, 1000 divided to people who won the bet,

the interesting question would be, would more than 50%of them get right or wrong?

how to generate a series of hash that we could verified already completed a job?

eg. job is add 5 and 8
result is 13
entitled a ticket
if wrong, minus 1, stalked ticket lose, keep on minus if wrong, must stay positive to get bet ticket

update:
it could be the sum of ip address, total count of job, total minutes of all online nodes, etc, odd or even, so the browserver doesn't need to access external data, to make things more harder to sabotage, result sha256 and see last digit odd or even,

it would be really cool to see this working in real life,

0 means we eat odd and even, another way to kill inflation,

just thought of a question, is it possible to have a hash result without any number? all A to F, no digit?
Post 24 May 2018, 18:15
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sleepsleep



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one of the best story, or a fact?
the origin of god Smile

the last question isaac asimov

https://amp.reddit.com/r/truebooks/comments/1t76ej/thoughts_and_questions_on_isaac_asimovs_the_last/
Post 25 May 2018, 04:44
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1203
sleepsleep wrote:
i just thought a cool idea,
why not the reward of coin are based on stock market index, or currency exchange rate?

each of the job done is entitled a ticket where the machine who received it could bet on the result of tomorrow currency pair rate hourly,

this obviously makes thing very hard to get sabotaged,

assume we will give 1000 each hour,
user could bet or direct machine to bet odd or even,
the lose bet are what we recovered to prevent inflation, 1000 divided to people who won the bet,

the interesting question would be, would more than 50%of them get right or wrong?
This has nothing to do with cryptocurrencies or blockchain though. They're not magic. You can't just "apply" them to anything and have it magically work... Rolling Eyes

But yeah, what you said already exists, it's called Binary Options. Avoid them like the plague.
Post 25 May 2018, 12:13
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sleepsleep



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it is different,
in the sense betting transactions stored inside block chain,

let say we got the all coins that will be mined, all stored inside block chain,
Post 26 May 2018, 04:13
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sleepsleep



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went to visit my uncle, who diagnosed with liver cancer,
there is actually nothing on earth that equal our hours, nothing,

nothing worth more than our life and health,

treasure them, care them, because once you lose them, you will definitely regret,
Post 27 May 2018, 17:29
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
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could only conclude, spend your time wisely, enjoy the moment, take good care of your own health, eat wisely, drink wisely, sleep and rest,

take care ~ my friends,
Post 30 May 2018, 04:33
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MSrobots2



Joined: 21 Oct 2017
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Maybe I am pragmatic, but why you want at all to keep things you did online after you are dead?

If it is worth preserving people thinking so will preserve it. Like old COBOL sources.

If not then not.

Setting up a system to preserve things people do NOT need, makes no sense to me.

Mike
Post 30 May 2018, 23:33
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sleepsleep



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imo, it is worth to preserve, coz they are all arts, and digital archive simplify the process of storing then, surely, it still needs some effort and monies to complete the archive,

the idea of do NOT need basically depend on the perspective you intend to view, as i said before, most of the thing people want are the thing that people lost,
Post 31 May 2018, 03:23
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sleepsleep



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you need to become a rapist then only you could start argue, discuss, or talk about raping,

this is actually the logic used by most religion to brainwash those newcomers,

religion is like a set meal, they put some humanity values inside, together with some damn evil practices, and they are selling them in one set,

they most likely to promote those humanity values, and claimed, those humanity values originated from their religion,

then they never uttered those problematic practices because they themselves knew very well, those practices are insane, downright evil,

i could claim i am trillionaire or zillionaire, but that doesnt makes it true,

the idea of belief already signifies that, it requires believe, it requires an effort from you to believe, to believe the statement is true and is undeniable fact,

the issue with brainwashed people, like, ... , ... ,... etc,
they are brain dead,
their logic is bad-wired,
they need some form of majority to treat unknown,
they are too weak to handle them personally,

the worse part is,
they want to influence others and disallow others to influence their believers,

what kind of practice is this?
they will most likely bring out the words, to strengthen and match any kinds of scientific conclusions,
it is always, everything already been told inside their ... books,

it is always, we must follow these rules, and these, as they are all prescribed by their ..
ultimately, some of them upgraded into god, and start commencing new laws,

is there a way to unplug them? no way,

because they been putting their whole life identity on that religion, and they are too scare to even ponder about not being part of that religion,

it needs a lot of courage to unplug, a lot,
Post 31 May 2018, 16:38
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