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flat assembler > Heap > Cloud computing. Who is in control?

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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
Location: 6EQUJ5
Cloud computing. Who is in control?
I am sure you have all read about it by now.

Could you trust another company to hold and process all your data online?

Could you trust every employee of another company to keep your data safe?

Could you trust that every line of code written for the server is bug free?

Would you still feel you are 100% in control of your data?

Do you feel that centralised computing makes it easier for governments to monitor people's activities?

Would you still own all of your data?

Are you willing to give up your current PC for a dumber 'net only version?

Do you want to pay by the hour/day/month/year to ensure you still have access to your data?

Could you trust others to do proper backups, thus freeing you from that burden?


Arrow For me, I don't want to go near it. Too many unknowns. Too many things to go wrong. Too much assignment of trust. Too little assurance. Too much to lose if something bad happens.

They advertise it as "freeing yourself from the desk". Well that is why I have my laptop, duh! Besides, how to access it without a computer anyway? I still need something to get access, duh! And worst of all, reading the small print reveals: "We are not responsible for loss ... blah blah blah".
Post 22 Apr 2009, 18:14
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asmcoder



Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 785
[content deleted]
[content deleted]


Last edited by asmcoder on 14 Aug 2009, 14:51; edited 1 time in total
Post 22 Apr 2009, 19:22
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 538
Re: Cloud computing. Who is in control?
Do you trust your ISP that he's not looking at your communication? Do you trust your mail services they aren't reading your email? Are you sure your OS and software is bug free? Do you feel the government needs the cloud to spy on you? Do you feel the government wants or needs to spy on you? Do you pay by the hour/month/year to access the internet now? Do you do proper backups? Do you do better backups of your data than someone you pay would?

Too many people don't understand what cloud computing or what "the cloud" is and too many people automatically assume the government must be involved. It's different so it must be bad.

Actually, it's not different at all and has been running over the internet for decades for businesses, research and just about anyone who uses *nix for work. People don't want to use Google Docs cause Google turns everything over to the NSA and FBI for perusal yet, if that were true, don't think once about how such things would put Google out of business tomorrow. But they have no problems ordering things online from Amazon, use torrents, and think their own ISP protects their data from prying eyes.

The cloud uses technology that's long been available and used by everyone. The government can't care less about your secret love letters. Get a life. But if you are worried about your wife finding out. Keep it on your hard drive. She'll never find them there. After all, it's safer.
Post 22 Apr 2009, 19:42
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LocoDelAssembly
Your code has a bug


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 4641
Location: Argentina
I'll do a brief comment about data storage:

Some weeks ago I turned on my old PentiumMMX to set it up for my father since he was willing to have an extra computer to work with. The computer was off-line for more than a year and after turning it on Windows 98 was still there and with all the data, I've installed a wireless card and now he can check up the e-mails from there too (I was really amazed that Win98 was capable of WLAN, BTW).

Some years ago I tried to log in to a Hotmail account that I forgot to log on for several months. What was the result? Sorry, we have disabled your account, you can get it back but forget about your inbox and outbox folders, we wiped them out already, have a nice day.*

My point: although perhaps the Internet services out there have better backup capability than I have, they have their own disadvantages like deleting your data because they think you are not interested on it any longer or, in the case of paid services, you forgot to (or can't) pay the bill this month. This won't happen with your own computer, it will never require you to pay nor turn it on from time to time to make it sure you care it.

I have no problem storing data over the Internet, but yet I recommend to have a personal copy of your data at your own control. (Also it is good for data availability since you can still access it even if the service is down or even your Internet connection is down)

*It was a spam-here-please account so I haven't missed anything important but Hotmail haven't used that argument to delete everything...
Post 22 Apr 2009, 22:40
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2469
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Cloud computing. Who is in control?

drhowarddrfine wrote:
Do you trust your ISP that he's not looking at your communication?

No, it's why I encrypt my important traffic and activities. (with proxies + encryption for data)


drhowarddrfine wrote:
Do you trust your mail services they aren't reading your email?

Use something encrypted like hushmail.
That would not be a matter of trust but of technical difficulty.

And yes I don't trust them. Of course not for trivial mails but the more 'important' ones (to me) are being encrypted.


drhowarddrfine wrote:
Are you sure your OS and software is bug free?

I use a third-party Firewall so I know if it does anything stupid. Not perfect, but significantly less chances.

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Post 23 Apr 2009, 00:01
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Imagine buying a car that only allowed travel within "approved" areas. It refuses to go anywhere outside the allowed zone no matter what you do. Would you be happy to buy that car? Well Apple's iPhone has similar problems, although in a slightly different way. Even though you buy the phone, you have no say over what apps can be run. Apple only allow "approved" apps, and can disable apps at their whim later if they desire. So who is really in control of "your" iPhone?
Post 23 Apr 2009, 12:15
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Be careful when you come to put your trust in the clouds.

Assignment of trust is something that many people seem not to think about. They can somehow justify it by saying "it is a faceless corporation, they won't do me wrong". Hehe, nothing could be much further from the truth in a lot of cases.


As an aside, but related: Do you use "free" Internet services? A: Yes, of course you do, everyone does.

So then a very important question to ask yourself: Why is it free anyway?

Answer: Because they want to make money off you.

If that seems paradoxical then you are not alone in thinking that. How can something free be making money from me? Therein lies the catch. It is the free things in life that often cost the most. So be mindful of where you put your data. I think that one of the best ways to be thinking when sending data to the 'net is to ask yourself "Do I mind if the whole world reads what I am sending?". Basically, if we assume that it will be exposed at some point and we are still not worried then go ahead and send it.
Post 04 Jun 2009, 17:20
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pelaillo
Missing in inaction


Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 860
Location: Colombia

Quote:
I have no problem storing data over the Internet, but yet I recommend to have a personal copy of your data at your own control.


For instance, Yahoo! decided to kill their Y!Briefcase and Geocities services because they were no longer interesting for them. All people relying on those services were thrown out with a month advice.

The only thing in this life that have the potential to render you free is the knowledge. If you don't know how to do it by yourself, don't let others to do it for you. Otherwise be prepared for umpleasant surprises or to pay expensive bills.
Post 04 Jun 2009, 18:13
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2469
Location: Bucharest, Romania

revolution wrote:
If that seems paradoxical then you are not alone in thinking that. How can something free be making money from me? Therein lies the catch. It is the free things in life that often cost the most. So be mindful of where you put your data. I think that one of the best ways to be thinking when sending data to the 'net is to ask yourself "Do I mind if the whole world reads what I am sending?". Basically, if we assume that it will be exposed at some point and we are still not worried then go ahead and send it.

Why not just, you know... encrypt it?

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Post 05 Jun 2009, 00:30
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
Location: 6EQUJ5

Borsuc wrote:
Why not just, you know... encrypt it?

Yes, that is part of the question/answer set. If you have encrypted something then the answer will likely be "I am not worried if the whole world sees this because it is encrypted".

However, encryption is not always what we expect it to be. Many people find it bothersome and cumbersome and just decide that it is too much hassle. How many people do you know that are encrypting every email? Both send and receive? And how do they do it anyway? It is not made easy by the public email servers that exist today.
Post 05 Jun 2009, 00:40
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Well most emails aren't sensitive. A self-claimed encrypted service is hushmail, but I still don't trust them and would rather encrypt my sensitive data myself Razz
Post 05 Jun 2009, 00:53
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
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Exactly my point, you have to place your trust somewhere. And getting people to think about just who they are really trusting is half the battle.

I have a friend that told me she keeps all her personal info (house address, CC numbers, passwords etc.) in her cell phone. I quickly tried to explain that her data was not safe. She argued that is was perfectly safe. So I said, what happens if you lose your phone (or stolen, or dies, or whatever). She thought for a moment and then realised that her data was very vulnerable. So just getting people to think about things for a moment is the most important first step.
Post 05 Jun 2009, 01:30
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bitRAKE



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 2628
Location: dank orb
People are easy to trust - groups of people can never be trusted. This is by their very nature - an inherant feature. It does not matter where trust is placed for it is likely to fail. Can your system of trust operate in a failure mode?
Post 05 Jun 2009, 02:36
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guignol



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Posts: 258
Yeah?
And how about google, now not only gathering the inquiries' information, but also the information about the way you type your inquiry, huh?

Bloody slow...
Post 05 Jun 2009, 13:02
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 538
Huh?
Post 05 Jun 2009, 13:03
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rxantos



Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 41
If the information is sensitive enough, do not put it in the internet and if you must, always use encription.

As for email, keep an email account for junk, and another one for important stuff, and do not use webmail for the one with the important stuff, instead use an email client, preferly opensourced and with encription,

Of course most companies do not use encription in their important emails, so basically they are sittiing ducks for a man in the middle attacks.
Post 18 Jun 2009, 20:49
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
Location: 6EQUJ5
If I buy a petrol car and put diesel in the gas tank then so what, my mistake, I'll deal with the consequences. Just the same with a phone, if I buy it and put Google Voice on there and change the interface, then so what, my phone, I'll change it if I want to (it's my party and I'll cry if I want to). But the reality is very different. Just look at how the poor iPhone owners are at the mercy of Apple. Apple will tell you to fuck off, because they are in control.

My advice:
  • Never buy a locked phone (this applies double for an iPhone)
  • Never trust your data to anyone else
  • Never accept external control over your own equipment or data under any circumstances, ever.
Post 22 Aug 2009, 10:27
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Artlav



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 189
Location: Moscow, Russia
Are there other locked phones besides iPhone out there?

About the cloud computing - if that's the things like Google Docs, then what's bad about it?

If you need to put a schedule online, it's about the same risk if it's on a hosted server somewhere, or on Google Docs, also somewhere.
If you need a file to be shared among several people, a free centralized system is even better.

About governments monitoring people's activities - are we talking about the same governments that can't find any piece of paper unless when not asked for?

What have i missed?
Post 22 Aug 2009, 10:53
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 14929
Location: 6EQUJ5

Artlav wrote:
Are there other locked phones besides iPhone out there?

Yep.

Artlav wrote:
About the cloud computing - if that's the things like Google Docs, then what's bad about it?

See the first post in this thread. Basically, you have no control.

Artlav wrote:
If you need to put a schedule online, it's about the same risk if it's on a hosted server somewhere, or on Google Docs, also somewhere.
If you need a file to be shared among several people, a free centralized system is even better.

Better ... until it goes away, or it gets sold/leased to another owner that reads your data without permission, or they delete it because you didn't pay them to keep it, or you have no Internet connection, or ... [lots of other bad things]

Artlav wrote:
About governments monitoring people's activities - are we talking about the same governments that can't find any piece of paper unless when not asked for?

If there is profit they will use whatever they want. And cloud computing data is not on paper.

Artlav wrote:
What have i missed?

The bus, it just passed by now, sorry you'll have to wait for the next one.
Post 22 Aug 2009, 11:15
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drhowarddrfine



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 538

revolution wrote:
Basically, you have no control.

How do you not have control?[quote]Better ... until it goes away, or it gets sold/leased to another owner that reads your data without permission, or they delete it because you didn't pay them to keep it, or you have no Internet connection, or ... [lots of other bad things][quote="Artlav"]That's true of everything.

Quote:
If there is profit they will use whatever they want. And cloud computing data is not on paper.

If a government really wants to get at your data, if it's on the internet in any way shape or form, they can get it. Cloud computing does not change that.
Post 22 Aug 2009, 12:33
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