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flat assembler > Heap > Cloud computing. Who is in control?

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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 16699
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
Azu wrote:
So store it on more than one. Hell, maybe even back it up yourself if you can afford it.
You can't "store on more than one" because you can't get it back locally and manipulate it, you have to edit it in the cloud, that is the cloud computing model.
Azu wrote:
Except for them being comprised of huge redundant clusters of servers rather then just some singular computer, ya.
If only that were true on all cases. Perhaps some of the bigger companies have that setup, but all the mom-and-pop systems aren't going to be so generous. There are a lot of badly setup and maintained website servers out there, you need to be really sure you get what you expect.

But even if by magic all systems were perfectly setup and maintained you still have to problem of the insiders, the workers. Unless you know them all personally and can vouch for their utmost integrity then you have no way to know who is looking at, or copying, your data.

Hey, I've got 100 DVD's of data our company has on the web servers where I work at Cloud Corp. I copied it while my boss wasn't looking. Wanna buy them? $100 per set, no questions asked.
Post 12 Oct 2009, 21:47
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Azu, I wonder if this discussion we have will change if I use "exploitation" or "failure" or "error", because it seems that you think they are all the same thing... Rolling Eyes

Encryption won't help at all dammit. I'm talking about FAILURE, about LOSS OF DATA, not about STEALING your data. (we talked about that before in this thread).

You know, it's like the difference between getting killed or getting kidnapped, if you get what I mean. Wink


and by the way, like revolution said, you can't have copies of your data. That's not cloud computing. Cloud computing would be, for example, if you stored data in your email account with no ability to save it to your hard drive.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 21:58
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Azu



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revolution wrote:
Azu wrote:
So store it on more than one. Hell, maybe even back it up yourself if you can afford it.
You can't "store on more than one" because you can't get it back locally and manipulate it, you have to edit it in the cloud, that is the cloud computing model.
How can they prevent you from doing that? I don't understand. Isn't it trivial to just copy and paste stuff (or make a little script if there's to much stuff to transfer manually)??? Confused


revolution wrote:
Azu wrote:
Except for them being comprised of huge redundant clusters of servers rather then just some singular computer, ya.
If only that were true on all cases. Perhaps some of the bigger companies have that setup, but all the mom-and-pop systems aren't going to be so generous. There are a lot of badly setup and maintained website servers out there, you need to be really sure you get what you expect.
Okay, maybe some like this Microsoft one are complete shit, but that's not due to some fundamental limitation in the concept of cloud computing. That's due to somebody making a crappy implementation of one. I'm sure some people make desktops that are absolutely atrocious as well.

revolution wrote:
But even if by magic all systems were perfectly setup and maintained you still have to problem of the insiders, the workers. Unless you know them all personally and can vouch for their utmost integrity then you have no way to know who is looking at, or copying, your data.
Again, not a problem with cloud computing.
Here are some solutions (which I already mentioned numerous times.. do you guys read my posts before replying to them???) though
1) Encrypt it
or
2) Have some kind of legal standard on how this kind of stuff is set up. Like, I don't know, maybe not let the workers snoop on your info? I mean for crying out loud what is the huge technical problem here? Either have them supervised, or just don't set up the system in a way that lets them do things they shouldn't. Duh. You're not afraid to order things online, use an ATM machine, or buy stuff with a credit card, are you? Guess what those are all ran by servers too.

Borsuc wrote:
Azu, I wonder if this discussion we have will change if I use "exploitation" or "failure" or "error", because it seems that you think they are all the same thing... Rolling Eyes
They are. If the programmers (and the QA team who are supposed to make sure they didn't mess up) fail so badly that they leave exploitable errors in a finished product, that's a problem with the company, not whatever broad category their product happened to be in! If somebody makes a comb that breaks off in your hair, do you use that as some kind of "proof" that all combs inherently suck? Because that's what you're doing here with cloud computing.

Borsuc wrote:
Encryption won't help at all dammit. I'm talking about FAILURE, about LOSS OF DATA, not about STEALING your data. (we talked about that before in this thread).

You know, it's like the difference between getting killed or getting kidnapped, if you get what I mean. Wink
Why do you so adamantly refuse to read anything I write before replying to it? That's extremely rude and antisocial. I've already told you countless times that your data should be distributed redundantly in case of failure.

Borsuc wrote:
and by the way, like revolution said, you can't have copies of your data. That's not cloud computing. Cloud computing would be, for example, if you stored data in your email account with no ability to save it to your hard drive.

Where in the definition of cloud computing is it specified "Cloud computing systems shall not provide any kind of redundancy/backups of the data stored on them" and "users of cloud computing systems shall be prevented from exporting their data"? I can't find any such clauses in the definition.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 22:32
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Borsuc



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Obviously I was saying if your files have no backup, or if the backups also fail. Keep in mind that for free services to offer robust backup solutions, not very likely.

As for the definition of cloud computing, do you think cloud computing=remote storage? Why do you want to make so many terms synonyms (exploitation=failure, cloud=remote storage) Confused

100% cloud computing would be like this: your computer has no harddrive, instead all the applications are web-based, and all your storage is on your account.

I don't think I need to point out again why that model is total FAIL for me.

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Post 13 Oct 2009, 01:00
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Cloud = fancy word for server clusters.
Servers = remote computers with ECC.
Thus; storing stuff via cloud computing = remote storage.


Exploitation = what happens when somebody fails to write code that isn't full of security errors(such as allowing remote systems to gain control over it when they shouldn't be able to).
Thus; exploits = fail.

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Post 13 Oct 2009, 01:05
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Nah, exploitation involves an attacker/thief/hacker/whatever. Wink

anyway how would you call the model I described then, where you don't have any harddrive at all?

What about "Notes" on your email account? Of course they can be copy-pasted, but not copied as-is in their format... that's cloud computing IMO. (i.e you have to do it manually, not just "copy" the files from the server...)

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Post 13 Oct 2009, 14:44
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
Why Amazon went Big Brother on some Kindle e-books

This one was deliberate. Ironically it was '1984' that was remotely deleted. People lost all their notes and other associated files along with it.

How do you copy-paste from a Kindle and backup to another server? Hmm ...
Post 13 Oct 2009, 14:58
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r22



Joined: 27 Dec 2004
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"The Cloud" only serves a monetary purpose.
Companies want recurring subscription fees.

The convenience factor is tangible until "The Cloud" either loses your data (like int he recent Microsoft/Danger data center FUBAR), gets breached and exposes your data, or has a major outage keeping you from your data.

"The Cloud" for entertainment is perfect. Every movie, music album, TV show, and game goes on "The Cloud" you pay a monthly or usage fee and have access to all of it. The content creators get a portion of the fees collected based on content popularity. Netflix, iTunes and XBox Live are perfect examples of this.
Post 13 Oct 2009, 15:44
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 16699
Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
r22 wrote:
"The Cloud" for entertainment is perfect. Every movie, music album, TV show, and game goes on "The Cloud" you pay a monthly or usage fee and have access to all of it. The content creators get a portion of the fees collected based on content popularity. Netflix, iTunes and XBox Live are perfect examples of this.
But that is not cloud computing, that is cloud storage/access. What you talk about above is just like the normal pay satellite TV stations, except delivered on-demand and via IP packets.
Post 13 Oct 2009, 15:50
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Borsuc



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Cloud computing means that the cloud does computations, not just store (backup of) your data. Essentially your "computer" can be a cellphone, doesn't even need a powerful CPU, it just needs to send instructions to the "cloud" computer.

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Post 13 Oct 2009, 15:57
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r22



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revolution wrote:
r22 wrote:
"The Cloud" for entertainment is perfect. Every movie, music album, TV show, and game goes on "The Cloud" you pay a monthly or usage fee and have access to all of it. The content creators get a portion of the fees collected based on content popularity. Netflix, iTunes and XBox Live are perfect examples of this.
But that is not cloud computing, that is cloud storage/access. What you talk about above is just like the normal pay satellite TV stations, except delivered on-demand and via IP packets.

Your constraining the definition of Cloud Computing to some mystical level.

You cannot have COMPUTATION without DATA.

Streaming data takes "Computation" there's compression algorithms and storage drivers that need to run in a massively parallel way to suite the needs of many clients at once.

The main tenant of "The Cloud" is data storage and retrieval that can be accessed by multiple clients at multiple locations. A web server on The Cloud or database server would mostly be storing and retrieving data there is of course dynamic scripts and T-SQL that use more computational power.


"The Cloud" is everything to everybody, but it's NEVER the thing being criticized. :D
Post 13 Oct 2009, 17:04
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Azu



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Borsuc wrote:
Nah, exploitation involves an attacker/thief/hacker/whatever. Wink
Nah, it involves a retarded programmer who made code that allows a remote system to gain control over it without permission. Ditch the victim complex already. If you make code that allows outside access, it's nobody's fault but your own.

Borsuc wrote:
anyway how would you call the model I described then, where you don't have any harddrive at all?
I'd call it "retarded", unless you mean replacing the hard drive with some other kind of persistent storage (like a NAND array or something).


Borsuc wrote:
What about "Notes" on your email account? Of course they can be copy-pasted, but not copied as-is in their format... that's cloud computing IMO. (i.e you have to do it manually, not just "copy" the files from the server...)
Well there should be an easy way to export them/back them up/or something.. otherwise that's a pretty inflexible service.


revolution wrote:
Why Amazon went Big Brother on some Kindle e-books

This one was deliberate. Ironically it was '1984' that was remotely deleted. People lost all their notes and other associated files along with it.

How do you copy-paste from a Kindle and backup to another server? Hmm ...

Um.. do you even know what a Kindle is? It's basically an extremely dumbed-down netbook that's way overpriced for being so weak, and everything on it is stored locally, which is the opposite of cloud computing.
It had a back door in it that allowed Amazon to take control of it remotely without the owner's permission (security failure, albeit by design).

Borsuc wrote:
Cloud computing means that the cloud does computations, not just store (backup of) your data. Essentially your "computer" can be a cellphone, doesn't even need a powerful CPU, it just needs to send instructions to the "cloud" computer.
Do you mean like when I send this message to the board.flatassembler.net server and it does computations on it, enters it into its database, and displays the thread with my post being into it? Your definition is too broad!

r22 wrote:
"The Cloud" only serves a monetary purpose.
Even the ones that are free and lack advertisements?

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Post 13 Oct 2009, 18:51
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r22



Joined: 27 Dec 2004
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Azu wrote:
r22 wrote:
"The Cloud" only serves a monetary purpose.
Even the ones that are free and lack advertisements?

Links or they don't exist!

Also, note that no matter what you say I'll simply posit that the service your describing "is NOT The Cloud, but some other thing like a cluster, distributed computing framework, or server farm." :D :D :D


Cloud Computing is a marketing term. If it's offered for free; consider it like a sample until demand and/or data lock-in grow to a point where paying or enduring advertisements can't be avoided.
Post 13 Oct 2009, 19:50
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Azu



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r22 wrote:
"is NOT The Cloud, but some other thing like a cluster, distributed computing framework, or server farm."
How do they differ?

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Post 13 Oct 2009, 19:56
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Borsuc



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Azu wrote:
I'd call it "retarded", unless you mean replacing the hard drive with some other kind of persistent storage (like a NAND array or something).
No I mean no storage at all. Well at least we agree that it's retarded, but you seem to think cloud computing is something else though Razz

Azu wrote:
Do you mean like when I send this message to the board.flatassembler.net server and it does computations on it, enters it into its database, and displays the thread with my post being into it? Your definition is too broad!
Good example!
Would you store sensitive/critical or personal encrypted posts on the forum?
What if it goes down?

(remember you can't save it to your harddrive, else it isn't "cloud computing" anymore, it's just "remote storage" -- there's no computing part -- cloud computing means that there is a central super-processor, all the others just connect and give instructions to it -- you could do it from a cellphone for instance).

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Post 13 Oct 2009, 23:13
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Azu



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Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
I'd call it "retarded", unless you mean replacing the hard drive with some other kind of persistent storage (like a NAND array or something).
No I mean no storage at all. Well at least we agree that it's retarded, but you seem to think cloud computing is something else though Razz
I think local storage is not mutually exclusive to it. For performance reasons (like not having to download the same data multiple times) alone if anything.

Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
Do you mean like when I send this message to the board.flatassembler.net server and it does computations on it, enters it into its database, and displays the thread with my post being into it? Your definition is too broad!
Good example!
Would you store sensitive/critical or personal encrypted posts on the forum?
What if it goes down?
That's why you shouldn't rely on just one. Single point of failure = bad. The nice thing about cloud computing is that it's distributed, so the overhead of redundancy is much smaller, especially when your most important data is small. It's easier to backup a few megabytes of emails/notes/source code/whatever to a bunch of servers than to physically burn them to CDs and drive around the country stashing them away everywhere.

Borsuc wrote:
(remember you can't save it to your harddrive, else it isn't "cloud computing" anymore, it's just "remote storage" -- there's no computing part -- cloud computing means that there is a central super-processor, all the others just connect and give instructions to it -- you could do it from a cellphone for instance).
You don't have to process it in other places to store it in other places.

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Post 13 Oct 2009, 23:51
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
r22 wrote:
Your constraining the definition of Cloud Computing to some mystical level.

You cannot have COMPUTATION without DATA.

Streaming data takes "Computation" there's compression algorithms and storage drivers that need to run in a massively parallel way to suite the needs of many clients at once.
Compressing and streaming data isn't 'cloud computation'. It is just a conversion process for convenience of transferring a smaller packet of data. The receiving device displays the pictures to you but you can't edit or change anything. You are a passive observer. It is just a glorified TV/radio.
Post 14 Oct 2009, 00:12
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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revolution wrote:
r22 wrote:
Your constraining the definition of Cloud Computing to some mystical level.

You cannot have COMPUTATION without DATA.

Streaming data takes "Computation" there's compression algorithms and storage drivers that need to run in a massively parallel way to suite the needs of many clients at once.
Compressing and streaming data isn't 'cloud computation'. It is just a conversion process for convenience of transferring a smaller packet of data. The receiving device displays the pictures to you but you can't edit or change anything. You are a passive observer. It is just a glorified TV/radio.
So RSS readers can't be ran in a cloud? Since they're passive?

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Post 14 Oct 2009, 00:28
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Borsuc



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Azu wrote:
That's why you shouldn't rely on just one. Single point of failure = bad.
That's remote storage. Remote storage =/= Cloud Computing.

For the millionth time, cloud computing is NOT remote storage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing
wiki wrote:
Cloud computing services often provide common business applications online that are accessed from a web browser, while the software and data are stored on the servers.


There are such things already

Most email accounts do NOT allow you to "export" your data. You have to do it manually.

If you care about characters, usually in MMO games, you CAN NOT export your character. (if the server goes down, say goodbye to your char).

Some blog services ALSO do NOT allow you to export your data (what you wrote), which makes migrating blogs a pain in some of them.


This is cloud computing, not remote storage

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Post 14 Oct 2009, 16:00
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Azu



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Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
That's why you shouldn't rely on just one. Single point of failure = bad.
That's remote storage. Remote storage =/= Cloud Computing.
No, it's disaster protection.

Borsuc wrote:
For the millionth time, cloud computing is NOT remote storage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_computing
wiki wrote:
Cloud computing services often provide common business applications online that are accessed from a web browser, while the software and data are stored on the servers.


There are such things already
Did you actually read my post before replying to it? I never said it shouldn't be on servers. All I said was there should be backups of your data on other servers in case the one you're using crashes.

Borsuc wrote:
Most email accounts do NOT allow you to "export" your data. You have to do it manually.
Weird. I thought most of them supported IMAP and POP3, and there are tons of programs out there that can backup emails from IMAP and/or POP3 e.g. Thunderbird/Claws/Outlook/and many more.

Borsuc wrote:
If you care about characters, usually in MMO games, you CAN NOT export your character. (if the server goes down, say goodbye to your char).
Well DUH! Otherwise people could edit their levels and stuff.
Anyways this is a non-issue since if the main server for an MMO goes down there's nothing left to play on except for illegal private servers anyways, so what would you do even if you did have a "backup"?

Borsuc wrote:
Some blog services ALSO do NOT allow you to export your data (what you wrote), which makes migrating blogs a pain in some of them.
Well those are shitty blog services, then.

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Post 14 Oct 2009, 20:00
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