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flat assembler > Heap > Cloud computing. Who is in control?

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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1160
You quoted an article saying the data loss was caused by an error Microsoft is responsible for, so yes, I think it's fair to "blame Microsoft", considering it's their code that screwed it up.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 18:24
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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You're making it sound as if only Microsoft are mortals running clouds, and all other solutions are perfect ran by Gods. People screw up stuff, and the cloud is ran by humans, Microsoft or not.

Now, people who have no PERSONAL attachment to your data have even less reason to "save" it.
Post 12 Oct 2009, 18:26
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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No, I'm making it sound like this failure you blamed on the cloud was actually caused by Microsoft (according to the article you quoted), and thus it is a problem with Microsoft and not the cloud in general like you claimed.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 18:28
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Yes, MS failed in this latest piece of news. But previously it was Google with their mail and office docs exposure. But who will be next? It would be foolish to think that every other company doing 'cloud stuff' will all be perfect and wonderful forever.
Post 12 Oct 2009, 18:52
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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I was talking about the incident Borsuc mentioned, not all computer related problems in general.

It would be foolish to think that every company making 'desktop stuff' is perfect and wonderful forever.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 18:56
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Azu wrote:
It would be foolish to think that every company making 'desktop stuff' is perfect and wonderful forever.
Except that there are millions of desktop stuff out there, and usually few centralized clouds (that's the whole point) making it statistically much worse in case it fails.

oh and did I mention that the failure may be out of your control in the cloud? I sure did.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:31
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
It would be foolish to think that every company making 'desktop stuff' is perfect and wonderful forever.
Except that there are millions of desktop stuff out there, and usually few centralized clouds (that's the whole point) making it statistically much worse in case it fails.

oh and did I mention that the failure may be out of your control in the cloud? I sure did.
Millions of desktops running the same closed source (out of your control) OS, making it worse when it fails.

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Last edited by Azu on 12 Oct 2009, 19:36; edited 1 time in total
Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:34
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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Do you live in the real world?

In the real world, computers don't get BSODs at the same time.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:36
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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Do you?

If everyone uses the same piece of software, and that software fails, everyone is screwed. Maybe not at exactly the same time, but still screwed.

There is much more diversity in the cloud market than the desktop market.

Just encrypt your data and put it in multiple clouds.. problem solved.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:38
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
Hmm, let's compare:

Cloud computing - one system fails and everyone loses their data.
Home computing - one system fails and one person loses their data.

Cloud computing - data is there but how would you back it up?
Home computing - data is here and I know how to back it up.

Cloud computing - hacker breaks into one system and steals everyone's data
Home computing - hacker breaks into one system and steals one person's data

Cloud computing - prime target, everyone's data is there
Home computing - insignificant target, only one person's data is there
Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:44
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Azu: Minor correction, cloud computing is not remote data storage. Things like encryption-and-send are not options you have as a choice.
Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:45
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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revolution wrote:
Hmm, let's compare:

Cloud computing - one system fails and everyone loses their data.
Home computing - one system fails and one person loses their data.

Cloud computing - data is there but how would you back it up?
Home computing - data is here and I know how to back it up.

Cloud computing - hacker breaks into one system and steals everyone's data
Home computing - hacker breaks into one system and steals one person's data

Cloud computing - prime target, everyone's data is there
Home computing - insignificant target, only one person's data is there


That only makes sense if each person uses a completely different OS.

In reality, however, over 90% use the same one.. by Microsoft.. Windows!

So if it gets screwed up, almost everyone is screwed.

I think the cloud servers are much more evenly split.


revolution wrote:
Azu: Minor correction, cloud computing is not remote data storage. Things like encryption-and-send are not options you have as a choice.
If you're just using it for computations and not storage, what exactly is the problem? You have nothing to lose except the time you spent learning how to use it.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:51
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


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The type of OS doesn't matter because the cloud-y computers also have to run OSes.
Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:53
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
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And?

Like I said; they have much more diversity, and it is easy just to backup your data to many of them, in case one fails, like this Microsoft one just did.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 19:57
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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WTF do you mean by the OS "gets screwed?"

Errors are temporary. Don't happen at the same time, and not for the same reasons.

Let's say there's a hardware device error, badly written drivers. Since the "cloud" uses a specific class of device, it would break up. If desktop PCs use that device, they also break up. But desktop PCs are much more varied because there's much more of them. People use Intel & AMD CPUs, for instance. But if the cloud is only one, and uses only a SPECIFIC model of a device, and that device fails, the entire cloud fails -- and whether people actually had that device or not is irrelevant, after all they stored their data on the cloud...

Seriously. I'm not getting what you mean by "bad OS" specifically one that can "exploit all computers in the world running it".

Here's another example: if the cloud building *magically* gets bombed because of the OS's rare BSOD, it's going to be a disaster for people who used it.

But if my computer gets bombed because of my OS and some stuff I did (no bug happens randomly without reason), it's only going to affect mine. No hysteria, and most importantly, it's something I've done, not someone else.


System can fail even because of hardware errors, RAM errors, or just BUGS that happen IN SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, not INEVITABLY -- which means something YOU DID, not someone else!

(e.g: if the program "Paint" crashes the system if you paint a black picture, it's all your fault if it happens -- but if some idiot on the cloud does it, you will mourn the result of an idiot's action).

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 20:28
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
Azu: You seem to be talking about remote data storage. That is not cloud computing. No one is saying that encrypting and uploading your data to some data storage place is bad. Indeed it is a good idea, but only for backups. The whole scene changes when you get into the cloud computing arena. Then you have to rely upon someone else to look after your data, and to back things up for you. If you are happy to leave your data to others to handle and store for you then that is fine.
Post 12 Oct 2009, 20:48
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1160
Borsuc wrote:
WTF do you mean by the OS "gets screwed?"
Meaning a big problem in it. Like allowing remote computers to take it over without your permission, or trashing the disc when the next year begins, or any other major problem.

Borsuc wrote:
Errors are temporary.
Except for all the ones that cause permanent damage/loss/compromise of data, yes.

Borsuc wrote:
Don't happen at the same time, and not for the same reasons.
Except for the ones that happen at the same time and/or for the same reason, sure.

Borsuc wrote:
Let's say there's a hardware device error, badly written drivers. Since the "cloud" uses a specific class of device, it would break up.
The? As in singular?
Obviously entrusting all your data to a single service is a bad idea.
Luckily there are lots of cloud based services out there. Some on Windows, some on Linux, some on BSD, even some on OSX!

Borsuc wrote:
If desktop PCs use that device, they also break up. But desktop PCs are much more varied because there's much more of them.
Except that almost all of them use the same OS. So there is a single point of failure spanning the vast majority of desktops.


Borsuc wrote:
People use Intel & AMD CPUs, for instance. But if the cloud is only one, and uses only a SPECIFIC model of a device, and that device fails, the entire cloud fails -- and whether people actually had that device or not is irrelevant, after all they stored their data on the cloud...
You make it sound like there is only one.
There are many clouds, and the ones that don't suck ass like that Microsoft one have redundancy within themselves. As in spread between multiple servers with no single point of failure.

Borsuc wrote:
Seriously. I'm not getting what you mean by "bad OS" specifically one that can "exploit all computers in the world running it".
I mean if there is a major flaw in Windows, there goes almost every desktop in the world.

Borsuc wrote:
Here's another example: if the cloud building *magically* gets bombed because of the OS's rare BSOD, it's going to be a disaster for people who used it.

But if my computer gets bombed because of my OS and some stuff I did (no bug happens randomly without reason), it's only going to affect mine. No hysteria, and most importantly, it's something I've done, not someone else.


System can fail even because of hardware errors, RAM errors, or just BUGS that happen IN SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, not INEVITABLY -- which means something YOU DID, not someone else!

(e.g: if the program "Paint" crashes the system if you paint a black picture, it's all your fault if it happens -- but if some idiot on the cloud does it, you will mourn the result of an idiot's action).
These are just rewordings of what I've already addressed above, so do forgive me for not addressing them all over again.


revolution wrote:
Azu: You seem to be talking about remote data storage. That is not cloud computing. No one is saying that encrypting and uploading your data to some data storage place is bad. Indeed it is a good idea, but only for backups. The whole scene changes when you get into the cloud computing arena. Then you have to rely upon someone else to look after your data, and to back things up for you. If you are happy to leave your data to others to handle and store for you then that is fine.
If you're not storing data on them, then all of this talk is irrelevant, since there is nothing for you to lose if they go down.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 20:51
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Borsuc



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 2468
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Azu wrote:
Meaning a big problem in it. Like allowing remote computers to take it over without your permission, or trashing the disc when the next year begins, or any other major problem.
Let me get this straight: you're talking about exploitations, not about errors and failures?
Why did you reply to that then? Razz

Azu wrote:
Except for all the ones that cause permanent damage/loss/compromise of data, yes.
I meant, temporary to some person, not "if that error happened to person X at time Y using OS Z, then it's going to happen to everyone using that OS!!!!!"

Azu wrote:
Except for the ones that happen at the same time and/or for the same reason, sure.
Yeah, at the same time. Next time I get a BSOD I should remember it must be news-worthy because millions will get it at the same time Rolling Eyes

Azu wrote:
Obviously entrusting all your data to a single service is a bad idea.
Luckily there are lots of cloud based services out there. Some on Windows, some on Linux, some on BSD, even some on OSX!
I think you assign too much bad hype to the OS and not to other things like mismanagement, a hardware error, some idiot doing something wrong, etc.

Especially for free services, what makes them so cautious about your data?

Azu wrote:
Except that almost all of them use the same OS. So there is a single point of failure spanning the vast majority of desktops.
Are you listening to what I'm saying? I'm talking about failures here, because the exploitation thing has already been addressed by revolution, which makes cloud computing worse for being centralized point of ATTACK.

Azu wrote:
I mean if there is a major flaw in Windows, there goes almost every desktop in the world.
I don't know. When my neighbor got a BSOD, mine was pretty fine.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 20:57
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revolution
When all else fails, read the source


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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Location: In your JS exploiting you and your system
Azu wrote:
If you're not storing data on them, then all of this talk is irrelevant, since there is nothing for you to lose if they go down.
The data is stored but you have no access to it locally, you have use the cloud to manipulate and edit it. That is what cloud computing is. So there is data to be lost, all the documents, email, contacts lists, whatever, that you have stored and edited there "in the cloud" (actually just some company's computer connected to an Internet line).
Post 12 Oct 2009, 20:59
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Azu



Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1160
Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
Borsuc wrote:
WTF do you mean by the OS "gets screwed?"
Meaning a big problem in it. Like allowing remote computers to take it over without your permission, or trashing the disc when the next year begins, or any other major problem.
Let me get this straight: you're talking about exploitations, not about errors and failures?
Why did you reply to that then? Razz
I'm talking about an OS getting screwed up.

Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
Borsuc wrote:
Errors are temporary.
Except for all the ones that cause permanent damage/loss/compromise of data, yes.
I meant, temporary to some person, not "if that error happened to person X at time Y using OS Z, then it's going to happen to everyone using that OS!!!!!"
If it's an error that occurs when a certain date is reached (like a y2k bug), or when a common event occurs (e.g. checking for updates), or it's an exploit that can be silently taken advantage of before anyone notices, then it's going to happen to almost everyone with desktops, no matter how fast a fix gets made.

Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
Borsuc wrote:
Don't happen at the same time, and not for the same reasons.
Except for the ones that happen at the same time and/or for the same reason, sure.
Yeah, at the same time. Next time I get a BSOD I should remember it must be news-worthy because millions will get it at the same time Rolling Eyes
That's as misinformed as claiming that any random error that happens on a cloud server is always going to effect every single user of it.

Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
Borsuc wrote:
Let's say there's a hardware device error, badly written drivers. Since the "cloud" uses a specific class of device, it would break up.
The? As in singular?
Obviously entrusting all your data to a single service is a bad idea.
Luckily there are lots of cloud based services out there. Some on Windows, some on Linux, some on BSD, even some on OSX!
I think you assign too much bad hype to the OS and not to other things like mismanagement, a hardware error, some idiot doing something wrong, etc.

Especially for free services, what makes them so cautious about your data?
The fact that anyone who isn't an idiot will have it on more than one service, and that if one of them makes a major fuckup (like Microsoft just did according to the article you linked to) that they will suffer massive PR damage resulting in losing many of their customers, which is bad, since no users = no advertisement (or whatever the business model is) money.



Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
Borsuc wrote:
If desktop PCs use that device, they also break up. But desktop PCs are much more varied because there's much more of them.
Except that almost all of them use the same OS. So there is a single point of failure spanning the vast majority of desktops.
Are you listening to what I'm saying?
Yes. But are you reading my replies? It doesn't seem like you are.

Borsuc wrote:
I'm talking about failures here
Allowing a remote system to take control of your own without permission seems like a pretty big failure to me.

Borsuc wrote:
because the exploitation thing has already been addressed by revolution, which makes cloud computing worse for being centralized point of ATTACK.
I already addressed this multiple times; encryption.

Borsuc wrote:
Azu wrote:
Borsuc wrote:
Seriously. I'm not getting what you mean by "bad OS" specifically one that can "exploit all computers in the world running it".
I mean if there is a major flaw in Windows, there goes almost every desktop in the world.
I don't know. When my neighbor got a BSOD, mine was pretty fine.
Do you have a point?
BSODs aren't indicative of a major problem in your OS. They can be caused by obscure errors in your RAM, your CPU, your motherboard, or third party software.
Just like one person might have an one error logging into a cloud service one time without it meaning the whole service is completely down.


revolution wrote:
Azu wrote:
If you're not storing data on them, then all of this talk is irrelevant, since there is nothing for you to lose if they go down.
The data is stored but you have no access to it locally, you have use the cloud to manipulate and edit it. That is what cloud computing is. So there is data to be lost, all the documents, email, contacts lists, whatever, that you have stored and edited there "in the cloud".
So store it on more than one. Hell, maybe even back it up yourself if you can afford it.

revolution wrote:
actually just some company's computer connected to an Internet line
Except for them being comprised of huge redundant clusters of servers rather then just some singular computer, ya.

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Post 12 Oct 2009, 21:21
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