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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1423
bzt wrote:
Exactly, those "nasty" things are not done by everyone, only by a small minority who are keeping secrets.
No I'm talking about what is considered nasty. Not everyone shares the same viewpoints. Laws change all the time, which means they cannot be considered absolute facts. They are just opinions, usually of dictators or the majority (democracy), etc.

Hard facts are science, data, etc. Things that change are just opinions. Laws have changed, laws will change, you are not the first nor the last who thinks that the time & place he lives in is the absolute fact of the world.

The Christian fanatics during middle ages had the same opinion of their majority -- that their belief is absolute. Guess how that turned out hundreds of years later.

bzt wrote:
Fact is, what I and the majority find morally wrong is actually considered to be a crime.
Congrats, you just discovered tyranny by majority.

Remember that the majority in some countries also say women are below men and slaves or whatever else.

bzt wrote:
For example corruption is a crime in every lawbooks in every countries of Earth. Selling people's private profiles to third parties (especially without their consent) is not just morally wrong, but it's against the law.
Again, tyranny by majority, and no, it's definitely NOT all countries on Earth.

And even more so, it has also not been universally in the same country over the years. These "laws" change all the time and have changed for the past thousands of years.

And yet here you are thinking your tiny little existence (in terms of extent of the entire humankind AND all regions it has existed into) is "Absolute" and "more objective" than the rest, when it will likely also change in 10, 20, perhaps 30 years. Even slavery was legal about 100 years ago, and yes, in the US!

bzt wrote:
Faking false articles on how cigarettes are not causing cancer is not just morally wrong, but a deception of customers which is a crime. Similarly offering loans to the masses for huge unpayable percentage and for which you don't have reserve, is not just morally wrong, but is usury which is a crime (the fact that banks have enough money to bribe judges does not mean it's legal what they do).
And those are just opinions. Doesn't make them any more objective just because the majority put laws in place for them.

Someone living in the middle ages would also say that rejecting God is "morally wrong and a crime" and he'd be right for the times he lived in. Does that mean you shouldn't argue with him at all, and just accept it because the time he lived in, he was right? (after all, it was a crime to reject God, and that's a fact, doesn't mean you have to obey it though, same with laws today)

Now please try to preach to him how your view of the world is better, especially if you teleported back in time to his era, where he has the majority on his side. Try to argue with his majority and see if you can win.

You can't, because it's just bullshit opinions and the exact definition of tyranny by majority.

bzt wrote:
Keeping astronomy in secret and lying about hiding the Sun to force slavery on the people is not just morally wrong, but a crime against humanity (according to the Universal Declarations of Human Rights).
But it wasn't in the past. You're obviously biased based on your very existence and the time you live in, but someone back then had the same idea.

bzt wrote:
This is a huge bullshit (no offense). There's no such thing "tyranny of the majority". Seriously you should educate yourself (a friendly advice). There's only tyranny of the minority (see definition of tyranny on wikipedia). Secrets are protecting that minority, which means it's bad for the majority. For your education, when the majority has the power that's called democracy, not tyranny.
It's pretty funny you mentioned democracy since that's exactly what the wikipedia article is all about.

bzt wrote:
BTW there's no true democracy today, what we have is an oligarchy (if you don't believe me, read a bit more on the topic). According to Plato, oligarchy leads straight to tyranny, and history has proven many many times that he is right. All historitians agree on that.
Thank goodness it's not, since democracy is tyranny of the majority (yes it's a quote).

Here's one gem: Men are not infallible; they err very often. It is not true that the masses are always right and know the means for attaining the ends aimed at. “Belief in the common man” is no better founded than was belief in the supernatural gifts of kings, priests, and noblemen. Democracy guarantees a system of government in accordance with the wishes and plans of the majority. But it cannot prevent majorities from falling victim to erroneous ideas and from adopting inappropriate policies which not only fail to realize the ends aimed at but result in disaster. Majorities too may err and destroy our civilization. - Ludwig von Mises, Human Action (1949), Ch. 9 : The Role of Ideas

bzt wrote:
And why on Earth should we protect the minority???
That same question surfaced when abolishing slavery, or separating religion from the state, etc. (and btw, blacks are still the minority, even today)

The times YOU personally live in are not more special than those of the past. They have changed, and they will change.

An absolute fact does not change, so clearly, your arguments, even if they come from the majority of a given era and place, are just opinions like all the rest. But you're the one who's trying to somehow say that they are more than just opinions.
Post 03 Jan 2019, 14:51
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Ali.Z



Joined: 08 Jan 2018
Posts: 222
Furs wrote:
But you're the one who's trying to somehow say that they are more than just opinions.

i would agree, because of the wordings he use. (its just like says, facts)

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Post 03 Jan 2019, 17:20
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bzt



Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 41
Tomasz Grysztar wrote:
Whether this is really a form of "tyranny" as defined in some other place is irrelevant, IMHO
I think that's very important. Actually that is what this discuss is all about. And it's a rather pointless discussion unfortunately, because people here don't seem to get the point or even bother to read more on the topic. If the majority can rule by force and secrets (let's not call it tyranny this time), I'd like to see an example from the history, because I don't think that had happened even once. (And please don't say democracy as there's no true democracy in any country, just the theatre which looks like. Last and only true democracy, when all state functionaries were randomly choosen was in ancient Anthen.)

@Furs: read and try to understand what I wrote. You reply on small parts, without getting the whole picture. Also it doesn't matter what law said in the past, any kind of slavery is and always was morally wrong (ask Spartacus, William Wallace or Martin Luther King about it), and thinking that slavery is morally wrong has nothing to do with tyranny of any sorts, no matter how bold is the text you use.
And I'd like you to name a country in which corruption is not considered to be a crime, and all citizens agree that bribing is good. Just one name.

@Ali.A: when I say "fact" then that's a fact for certain. When I say my opinion, I use the phrases "imho" or "I think". And yes, I usually mix facts and my own opinion within one post: that's why I use those phrases.

You are so young my friends, there's a lot to learn for you. No offense, but it sometimes feels like I'm Neo talking to the Matrix-dwellers. Let's talk when you're more mature and gathered some wisdom.

Cheers,
bzt
Post 05 Jan 2019, 11:51
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DimonSoft



Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 539
Location: Belarus
bzt wrote:
any kind of slavery is and always was morally wrong (ask Spartacus, William Wallace or Martin Luther King about it), and thinking that slavery is morally wrong has nothing to do with tyranny of any sorts, no matter how bold is the text you use.

Most of us are still slaves these days. The only difference is that ancient slaves worked to have something to eat and somewhere to live while modern ones have Internet access added to the list.
Post 05 Jan 2019, 16:14
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Ali.Z



Joined: 08 Jan 2018
Posts: 222
bzt wrote:
You are so young my friends, there's a lot to learn for you. No offense, but it sometimes feels like I'm Neo talking to the Matrix-dwellers. Let's talk when you're more mature and gathered some wisdom.

Cheers,
bzt

its an offense, wisdom and respect are related to each other.

maybe you should have had mentioned wise instead of wisdom, a human can be wise in one or more fields while wisdom is different.

thus you might be wise in such field, but far away from wisdom.

its pure kind of disrespect you have when you say other are young and need to be more mature, if you think you are more mature then this might only applies to this subject you are talking about. (so there is no need to treat humans like they are low)

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Post 05 Jan 2019, 16:22
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Furs



Joined: 04 Mar 2016
Posts: 1423
bzt wrote:
If the majority can rule by force and secrets (let's not call it tyranny this time), I'd like to see an example from the history, because I don't think that had happened even once.
There's many examples of votes in conservative european countries where people were asked to vote about stuff like gay marriage or allowing gay couples to be legal and stuff like that.

The outcome is irrelevant. What matters is that other people (the majority) are allowed to control your basic life rights, and that's tyranny, by definition.

There's also been votes to separate religion from the state. Again, what if conservative majority votes in favor of keeping religion mandatory? Do you still not think it's tyranny?

You are biased because in the country you currently live right now, you "agree" with the majority, so of course to you it seems perfectly moral! But that's also what seemed perfectly moral to religious leaders back in the days. Each and every one of them thinks he's completely moral.

bzt wrote:
@Furs: read and try to understand what I wrote. You reply on small parts, without getting the whole picture. Also it doesn't matter what law said in the past, any kind of slavery is and always was morally wrong (ask Spartacus, William Wallace or Martin Luther King about it), and thinking that slavery is morally wrong has nothing to do with tyranny of any sorts, no matter how bold is the text you use.
I can tell you the exact same thing, including the bold part at the end (which you just did). Wink

Spartacus, William Wallace or Martin Luther King were not gods either, and were just as human as religious leaders, what makes them more special?

I need some scientific method here if you want to prove you are more than just opinions. So far you just make claims about what is morally wrong, but so do the religious wackos.

I don't see why you are more right than them or why I'm supposed to take your word for it.

bzt wrote:
And I'd like you to name a country in which corruption is not considered to be a crime, and all citizens agree that bribing is good. Just one name.
North Korea.


(btw, in general not here, not "all", democracy is tyranny by majority, not tyranny by all...)


Last edited by Furs on 05 Jan 2019, 18:07; edited 1 time in total
Post 05 Jan 2019, 18:03
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sleepsleep



Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 8288
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is young an offensive word?
somehow i felt, i wish i could be really young, with perfect physical body, Laughing
no sickness, no any other form of old age symptoms,

tyranny
- cruel and oppressive government or rule.
- a state under cruel and oppressive government.
- cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.

the whole thing about this word is, it is pretty hard to set a border of what is what,
what is cruel, what is oppressive, unreasonable,

the level and degree of what is what is obviously very different from person to person,

democracy is another word that almost got nothing solid inside,
- a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

- control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.

no doubt, anything that did by a majority of its members, could be considered as tyranny, it just depends on who you ask,

and majority is another word that set no border on what considered as majority,

the whole words are probably near useless if we want to define something very solid, Laughing
Post 06 Jan 2019, 11:11
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sleepsleep



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Post 21 Jan 2019, 14:47
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bzt



Joined: 09 Nov 2018
Posts: 41
sleepsleep wrote:
Great pyramid underwater tunnels,

Forgive me, but I can't take seriously a fake news portal and a YT video, and you shouldn't either.

Do you have a link to a trusted scientific publication like I did?
Post 27 Jan 2019, 18:24
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